ebay seller making up the rules...

[prowla]

Well, I won an auction to buy a Warwick bass on ebay and arranged to go and collect it from the seller next weekend.

I then got a payment reminder, so I messaged the seller saying I assumed that was an automated reminder and were we still on for next weekend?

I got a reply:

Quote

Hi
It was not automated. I would like the payment made by Paypal asp. If you end up not taking the item then I would refund your money. With all due respect, I prefer it his way to avoid time wasters.
Kind regards

Well, that hacked me off a bit.

I didn't like the premise that I should pay upfront because I might be a timewaster.

I've replied to say so, and that I'm bailing from the sale.

Quote

Hmmm
I find your "with all due respect" implication of being a timewaster a bit offensive, in all honesty.
I hardly think that a person with over 1400 ebay transactions making arrangements to drive nearly 200 miles to collect the item could in any way be construed as a risk on your part.
I won't be paying unseen, in advance, and find the idea of paying and then asking for a refund if there are issues as a bit ridiculous.
I don't know if you have had issues with buyers before, in which case I am sorry to hear it, but I feel that you asking me to trust you with my money because you won't trust me to turn up is unacceptable.
I respectfully ask you to cancel the sale, as I do not wish to do business with you.
I wanted a 2nd Warwick 5-string, and thought I had fount it, but instead I will continue my search elsewhere.

Grrr.

Still, I did go and collect an Epi LP neck and body today (white), so I'll console myself with putting that together into a guitar (I have a set of pickups & hardware for it).

[Ricky 4000]

Was it from Bristol? If so, I came very close to bidding on that one myself, but as it looked "very used" and I know knack-all about Warwicks - I thought I'd better not.

[Beedster]

Sorry, I’m with the seller, I’d always expect payment in advance to ensure I’m not waiting in all day for a no-show buyer. 

[Mudpup]

Was it that Fortress in Bristol? I was thinking about that one but he had already sold it earlier this year apparently and something didn't quite stack up for me

[paul_c2]

What did it say on the advert, for payment options? Was cash on collection mentioned?

[prowla]

@Mudpup @Ricky 4000Yep - Bristol.

@paul_c2 Nope - no mention of cash on collection, but I've previously done Paypal from a seller's place, using mobile t'internet thingy (and cash, if accepted, avoids fees).

@Beedster Well, since I was planning to do a 3-hour round trip, I would be taking it on trust that they would be there. And of course, since the whole trust thing is being questioned, having got my money, they could simply say I'd been and collected it.

[pete.young]

Thought it was bad practice to allow Paypal payments if an item is being collected - what's to stop you picking up the bass and then registering a dispute, which you would win because the seller had no proof of delivery?

[prowla]

1 minute ago, pete.young said:

Thought it was bad practice to allow Paypal payments if an item is being collected - what's to stop you picking up the bass and then registering a dispute, which you would win because the seller had no proof of delivery?

I think ebay/paypal want their cut, so they're happy to have the option there.

I wonder if Paypal records the location of the transaction, so if it's from their house, then that would say you were there and paid.

But yes, paying in advance and collecting it would not give the seller any particular protection. Since they've said in their comms they'd refund if it wasn't OK; that would cover me trotting off with it and then saying I'd rejected it and was waiting for my refund.

I guess the point is that in a transaction as soon as one party starts mentioning mistrust, they've opened a whole can of worms.

@Mudpup's somment about it having been sold already earlier in the year has tweaked my suspicion-o-meter a bit.

[Beedster]

7 hours ago, prowla said:

Well, since I was planning to do a 3-hour round trip, I would be taking it on trust that they would be there. And of course, since the whole trust thing is being questioned, having got my money, they could simply say I'd been and collected it.

That's a fair point, and I get where you're coming from re his mentioning trust. I think the problem with eBay, which largely isn't the case on BC, is that there are a lot of really quite untrustworthy people, buyers and sellers, and the eBay feedback system is broken because seller's can't neg a buyer and any neg a buyer leaves can be wiped with a quick call to customer support. I wonder if the reason this guy was being less than trusting of you was because the previous buyer didn't turn up to collect it, hence the re-listing? I don;t sell much on eBay, but I don't let people come to my house to collect anything anymore, too many no-shows, hagglers and tyre kickers these days. Not like it used to be eh 😏 

[prowla]

27 minutes ago, Beedster said:

That's a fair point, and I get where you're coming from re his mentioning trust. I think the problem with eBay, which largely isn't the case on BC, is that there are a lot of really quite untrustworthy people, buyers and sellers, and the eBay feedback system is broken because seller's can't neg a buyer and any neg a buyer leaves can be wiped with a quick call to customer support. I wonder if the reason this guy was being less than trusting of you was because the previous buyer didn't turn up to collect it, hence the re-listing? I don;t sell much on eBay, but I don't let people come to my house to collect anything anymore, too many no-shows, hagglers and tyre kickers these days. Not like it used to be eh 😏 

I agree that you do need to take appropriate care, but I have to say I’ve not had a problem selling or collecting. 

In this case, the seller listed it as collection only, so I guess they were ok with buyers turning up. 

In this case they’ve lost the sale, so they’ve made more hassle for themself. 

(I was going to make a day out and see the SS Great Britain.)

[Beedster]

2 hours ago, prowla said:

I agree that you do need to take appropriate care, but I have to say I’ve not had a problem selling or collecting. 

In this case, the seller listed it as collection only, so I guess they were ok with buyers turning up. 

In this case they’ve lost the sale, so they’ve made more hassle for themself. 

(I was going to make a day out and see the SS Great Britain.)

Ah, OK, if it's collection only he's only got himself to blame really

[prowla]

They’ve cancelled the sale, as requested. 

[alyctes]

SS Great Britain is well worth a visit, if you've not been.  I must go again

[PaulWarning]

why would anybody want to pay ebay fees and risk a dispute when paypal would almost certainly side with the buyer when there's cash on offer?

Some strange folk about

[Woodinblack]

I would only accept paypal if I was shipping the item to someone to have proof it was sold, paypal on collection just means you could claim that they never sent it to you, there is no proof you got it but proof that it was paid for, so it seems odd he would want it that way. But I would always be more than happy to have cash on collection, that is the best payment option method for me.

 

[prowla]

7 hours ago, alyctes said:

SS Great Britain is well worth a visit, if you've not been.  I must go again

Yep - I’ve been to see her a couple of times. I remember her as a wreck from my childhood. 

[lemmywinks]

Seller is a complete idiot for requesting Paypal on a collection item, sooner or later they'll be the target of a scammer who will pick the item up and then start an item not received claim. Seeing as he can't prove they took it (Paypal won't accept videos etc) and the buyer can prove they paid him he will lose every time.

 

Although it's usually a scam associated with phones leaving yourself open like that just on the off chance someone wastes your time is a massive risk.

[fleabag]

I always thought that  regarding an Ebay auction, if you won it without checking it first, that's the buyers problem, and you've basically bought it unseen.

AFAIK,   you dont get to bid and win, then check it out to see if you want it.  Just my interpretation of Ebay rules - could be wrong though

[Ricky 4000]

1 minute ago, fleabag said:

I always thought that  regarding an Ebay auction, if you won it without checking it first, that's the buyers problem, and you've basically bought it unseen.

AFAIK,   you don't get to bid and win, then check it out to see if you want it.  Just my interpretation of Ebay rules - could be wrong though

That's my understanding as well. Just like regular auction rules.

Yes there are circumstances where you can reject the goods, but an auction price is certainly not a starting point for "a certain type of buyer" to arrive at the sellers home and haggle the price down.

That's possibly why a number of eBayers don't offer "cash on collection" in their payment terms. Others do of course, which is up to them.

 

[prowla]

38 minutes ago, fleabag said:

I always thought that  regarding an Ebay auction, if you won it without checking it first, that's the buyers problem, and you've basically bought it unseen.

AFAIK,   you dont get to bid and win, then check it out to see if you want it.  Just my interpretation of Ebay rules - could be wrong though

Well, there's a condundrum there, because ebay won't let you make contact with the seller to see the item before the end of the auction.

As far as checking it out, there could be an undeclared issue with it which you would only find out when you saw it.

But in this particular case, the item was listed as collection only and the seller implied they couldn't trust me to go and collect it, but expected me to trust them to be there when I drove 2 hours to get there.

[prowla]

34 minutes ago, Ricky 4000 said:

That's my understanding as well. Just like regular auction rules.

Yes there are circumstances where you can reject the goods, but an auction price is certainly not a starting point for "a certain type of buyer" to arrive at the sellers home and haggle the price down.

That's possibly why a number of eBayers don't offer "cash on collection" in their payment terms. Others do of course, which is up to them.

 

It certainly wasn't my intention to haggle over the price; indeed I bought a(nother) Warwick a couple of weeks ago and paid the seller the pre-agreed price when I went to collect it.

[fleabag]

3 minutes ago, prowla said:

Well, there's a condundrum there, because ebay won't let you make contact with the seller to see the item before the end of the auction.

As far as checking it out, there could be an undeclared issue with it which you would only find out when you saw it.

But in this particular case, the item was listed as collection only and the seller implied they couldn't trust me to go and collect it, but expected me to trust them to be there when I drove 2 hours to get there.

Agreed, a conundrum indeed.  But the idea is that it's an auction, and if you bid and win it's yours. But  because it's unseen auction, this is where it gets weird, as you rightly say

Then again, there's a sneaky way round Ebay's banning of phone numbers and addresses in ebay messaging. I've used it myself. And until they catch on, i still use it

[prowla]

6 minutes ago, fleabag said:

Agreed, a conundrum indeed.  But the idea is that it's an auction, and if you bid and win it's yours. But  because it's unseen auction, this is where it gets weird, as you rightly say

Then again, there's a sneaky way round Ebay's banning of phone numbers and addresses in ebay messaging. I've used it myself. And until they catch on, i still use it

Yep.

Anyway, on this one I wasn't going to drive 2 hours to turn up an say "nah, mate!"; the issue was not about paying, but about paying in advance with no SNAD protection.

The auction houses allow (or even expect) you to pay in person on collection, thereby saving the hassle of dealing with couriers.

However, if I turned up and it had a neck like a banana, I would not have gone ahead with it, of course.

[Ricky 4000]

10 minutes ago, prowla said:

It certainly wasn't my intention to haggle over the price; indeed I bought a(nother) Warwick a couple of weeks ago and paid the seller the pre-agreed price when I went to collect it.

Oh, and it certainly wasn't my intention to include you as "that type of buyer". I didn't think that for a moment.

As you alluded to in your previous posts on this thread - in many scenarios, there actually would have been more "buyer protection" available to you if you had agreed to pay via Paypal in advance, and of course, the fees are applied to the seller... I think most would agree that under the eBay/PP system, there's more protection for buyer's than seller's.

To answer your question(ish) of whether it was odd or unusual for the seller to request PP payment prior to collection - in my opinion, no. It's not unusual.

Of course, some sellers choose to go the other way, by insisting on  "cash on collection only".

I think neither is right or wrong, however it is up to the seller to decide those terms. In this case, the seller's terms seem to have caught you unawares.

Q: If the seller had expressed the payment terms more clearly (perhaps by stating it in the item description) - do you think you'd have still bid for the item after having more time to consider it?

Phil  

[paul_c2]

1 hour ago, fleabag said:

I always thought that  regarding an Ebay auction, if you won it without checking it first, that's the buyers problem, and you've basically bought it unseen.

AFAIK,   you dont get to bid and win, then check it out to see if you want it.  Just my interpretation of Ebay rules - could be wrong though

As I understood it, this ISN'T the case - "winning" an eBay auction is NOT a contract to buy. Ie if you go to collect the item, you are not obliged to pay/take the item and you can't be sued for breach of contract or whatever if you decide on seeing it you don't want it, or pull out completely etc. Of course, eBay would like you to complete the transaction, and in 99% of cases where there is no further issue such as misdescribed, then it would plainly make sense to go through with it - after all you wanted it right? But that when it comes down to it, legally, there isn't the obligation to do it. 

Happy to be corrected (but please don't simply quote the eBay rules - of course they want you to....and their rules say so!)