New Mesa Walkabout-style high powered amp WD-800....and new cabs...

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, dmccombe7 said:

Out of curiosity in US cause i've never actually been there but is the US price exclusive of additional taxes whereas the UK price includes VAT.

I know when i was in Canada i had to pay 2 different additional taxes or costs on most things i bought altho i was able to reclaim one of them when i got home.

Just a thought 

I've seen the WD800 now at £1299 down from original retail price of circa £1599 i think.

Dave

Don't think the price was ever above (the already high) £1,299 over here. 

[Beedster]

Seems to have gone quiet on this head, now it's been out a while, is it any good, any issues, anything.........?

[thodrik]

2 hours ago, Beedster said:

Seems to have gone quiet on this head, now it's been out a while, is it any good, any issues, anything.........?

I’m not sure if any Basschatters have bought one yet. 
 

I think that there is a Talkbass megathread which is largely positive. 
 

[Al Krow]

26 minutes ago, thodrik said:

I’m not sure if any Basschatters have bought one yet. 

I think that there is a Talkbass megathread which is largely positive.

Well I guess that's kinda proved the point that most of us were trying to make to Mesa.

$999 in US = approx £767 for US bassists, who aren't collectively going to be less well off than us are they? Add shipping, customs & VAT and that should get to around £999 in the UK.

But no, best price is currently £1,267 i.e. £500 more than a US bass player is forking out.

End result: megathread in the US. Barely registering in the UK.

Simples.

[scrumpymike]

Megathread on Talkbass, megadeath on here.  Somebody's taking the p*ss with UK pricing!  Shame as Mesa make such good stuff 🙁

[chris_b]

In Mesa's opinion they make high quality products and price accordingly. They are not in the high production volume market so comparisons in that area are pretty pointless. Why does anyone on BC think they know the costs involved to distribute products around the world and maintain a global support network and a sales infrastructure? 

25 years ago a 400+ was £1449. Now that was expensive! In fact my annual bonus, and then some. Mesa earned their money and much  respect from me when they took the amp back for repair about 5 times and then asked the shop to exchange it. Not what I expected of the amp but more than I expected from the company.

Edited January 21, 2020 by chris_b

[Beedster]

8 hours ago, chris_b said:

In Mesa's opinion they make high quality products and price accordingly. They are not in the high production volume market so comparisons in that area are pretty pointless. Why does anyone on BC think they know the costs involved to distribute products around the world and maintain a global support network and a sales infrastructure? 

25 years ago a 400+ was £1449. Now that was expensive! In fact my annual bonus, and then some. Mesa earned their money and much  respect from me when they took the amp back for repair about 5 times and then asked the shop to exchange it. Not what I expected of the amp but more than I expected from the company.

All fair points Chris, although I suspect the 400+ cost a lot to distribute compared to the WD-800. Given the respect for the Walkabout, it's a shame for a company that does try to bring both quality and innovation to all of its products that this appears to have gone nowhere.

[scalpy]

8 hours ago, chris_b said:

In Mesa's opinion they make high quality products and price accordingly. They are not in the high production volume market so comparisons in that area are pretty pointless. Why does anyone on BC think they know the costs involved to distribute products around the world and maintain a global support network and a sales infrastructure? 

25 years ago a 400+ was £1449. Now that was expensive! In fact my annual bonus, and then some. Mesa earned their money and much  respect from me when they took the amp back for repair about 5 times and then asked the shop to exchange it. Not what I expected of the amp but more than I expected from the company.

This is absolutely a fair point, and whilst some on BC might know about international goods distribution I admit I don't. However, this is exactly the kind of amp I'd have to replace my ageing LMT500, but the gains I'd see for over £1200 are minimal in the real world for the price difference between other amps £200 less, so I won't be buying one. It looks like I'm not alone. Surely mesa want to sell some of these?

[Al Krow]

Mesa simply export their kit to Westside distribution in Glasgow AFAIK. It shouldn't cost them any more to export than any other US manufacturer. And yes I do know (albeit a little) about international distribution costs via my day job. 

Let's put it like this: if Jim Bergantino can export his kit to the UK with broadly a one $ = one £ rate allowing for VAT, shipping and customs then why can't Mesa?

The excuse that Mesa have been giving is that they don't set retail prices in the UK. (See lengthy discussions on this earlier in the thread). I don't buy that excuse, as you'd expect at least one retailer to break rank if there were "super profits" being made at that point in the supply chain. 

Which is a shame - a lot of us on this thread, me included, are big Mesa fans. My M6 is still my all time favourite amp. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Al Krow

[chris_b]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Let's put it like this: if Jim Bergantino can export his kit to the UK with broadly a one $ = one £ rate allowing for VAT, shipping and customs then why can't Mesa?

How is that even a question? Mesa will  make their own business decisions. They know their marketplace and they have been running a successful company, with pretty high prices, for 50 years. A few years ago I remember walking around their shop in Denmark Street and almost every guitar combo was over £2k. You can dislike their pricing policy but comparisons are futile. If only Aston Martin reduced their prices I could buy one, instead of the old Volvo I could afford!

25 years ago Mesa certainly did assign and enforce retail prices, well in the UK and at the Bass Centre, they did. Grant complained about them, a lot. Then again, people can pay just as much for their cabs and significantly more for their basses. Many big valve amps are north of £2K so the headlining, feature packed D class amps could be said to be on the more reasonable side of that comparison. But still, owning certain gear can be an expensive decision. You decide which marketplace is for you and then normal buying decisions apply.

But if you're a Ford Focus guy why worry about the cost of a Range Rover?

[wateroftyne]

3 minutes ago, chris_b said:

But if you're a Ford Focus guy why worry about the cost of a Range Rover?

Of course you can always buy a Range Rover for Ford Focus prices from elsewhere.

[EBS_freak]

2 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Of course you can always buy a Range Rover for Ford Focus prices from elsewhere.

Will still break down when you look at it though.

[chris_b]

Just now, wateroftyne said:

Of course you can always buy a Range Rover for Ford Focus prices from elsewhere.

I thought we were talking about new amps, but the used marketplace is a very interesting place to be.

[Beedster]

Given how cheap some older series Mesa gear was being sold at New Year, I was hoping to hear something around now about new prices on their new range......

[wateroftyne]

I'm just sayin' that they've priced themselves higher than the likes of Bergantino and Glockenklang, which strikes me as a little odd.

I can't remember the last time I saw a band using a Mesa head in the UK, but I guess they like it like that.

[Beedster]

11 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

I can't remember the last time I saw a band using a Mesa head in the UK, but I guess they like it like that.

There's almost need of a conspiracy theory.......

[Al Krow]

15 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

I can't remember the last time I saw a band using a new 2019 range Mesa head in the UK, but I guess they like it like that.

Fixed

Fair few BCers are using M6, WA, D800, D800+ etc

Edited January 22, 2020 by Al Krow

[thodrik]

In terms of the WD800 not taking off (at least on Basschat), my views are: 

1) Price, it is more expensive than other premium heads, including the D800 and D800+  which were already on the market and were catering to people who wanted a high power, portable Mesa bass amp. People who spent £800-£900 on the D800 in 2016-17 or D800+ 18 months after that were not exactly going to be in the market for another Mesa bass amp at £1200+ released shortly thereafter again.  If the WD800 had been released first, then I have no doubts it would have made a bigger splash on the market. However, the D800 and D800+ were developed and released first, so 'it is what it is'. I don't want to come across that I am criticising Mesa for releasing three brand new bass heads in five years, which I think is a really positive move. However that is a lot of new products in a short space of time. 

2) It is a 'new' design but is also still kind of a take on an 'old' design by being marketed as kind of a 'new and improved' Walkabout. This obviously has the danger of limiting the amp's appeal on the basis that a lot of people who have the Walkabout like how it is already is, and given the build quality of Mesa, most of the existing Walkabouts are going to be operational for years to come. People who didn't like, or who never tried the Walkabout might prefer the D800 or D800+ anyway as they are less expensive and look more 'user friendly' (i.e less knobs). For that reason, I think that the WD800 is a bit more of a niche product to begin with.

If I am being honest, the price of the WD800 doesn't really turn me off. I paid about the same for my Walkabout 1x15 combo in 2008. In that case I paid a premium but it has been more than worth it. In any case, the flagship Mesa bass head is now £1299 or so, whereas  their previous 'flagship' M9 and Big Block/Titan V12 amps were closer to £2k and above when new, while the recent Strategy/Prodigy amps were much more than that again. Yes we are talking class D vs Hybrid and all valve amps and we would normally expect Class D type bass heads to be cheaper. However, as it stands, the flagship Mesa bass head is now much less expensive than it used to be...

The Mesa pricing issue only really becomes an issue for me with the cabs. Their current 4x10 is currently listed as £2150, which I think is over the odds, even for the usual Mesa UK price allowances (the cab is being sold for about $1599 in the States). I just cannot justify spending that much on a cab when it is almost double the price of other premium level competitors. 

 

 

[wateroftyne]

13 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Fixed

Fair few BCers are using M6, WA, D800, D800+ etc

Right, that's.. what.. a handful, in a super-condensed GAS-inducing environment.

I also run an FB group for local bass players (membership just over 3,000), and I don't think MESA have been mentioned once (apart from me, 'cos I love the Walkabout).

[wateroftyne]

..and I still can't remember the last time I saw a band using any MESA head, with my own eyes.

[Al Krow]

11 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Right, that's.. what.. a handful, in a super-condensed GAS-inducing environment.

I also run an FB group for local bass players (membership just over 3,000), and I don't think MESA have been mentioned once (apart from me, 'cos I love the Walkabout).

Wow - 3,000 bass players in your neck of the woods / Tyneside?! That's impressive.

[wateroftyne]

Just now, Al Krow said:

Wow - 3,000 bass players in your neck of the woods / Tyneside?! That's impressive.

Well, Tweed to Tees, with a bit of Yorkshire hoyed in. The reality is it's open to anyone from anywhere, but FS ads can only be local. Shameless plug.

[agedhorse]

Guys, I think you are (at least in part) misunderstanding some differences between how commerce is done the UK and commerce is done in the US, including HOW pricing is presented.

1. In the UK, your prices INCLUDE 20% VAT, in the US, our prices do NOT INCLUDE state sales tax (our version of your VAT), which runs between 9-10% average.

2. Importing into the UK costs roughly an additional 10-12% on top of this VAT for things like transportation, licensing, bonding, insurance, registration, and safety/EMC inspections and certificates.

3. There are some additional costs for warehousing, distribution and servicing/support which are generally covered by the importer of record, but of course this is a real cost as well.

So, as an example let's take an amp that is advertised for sells for and sells for $1000 in the US and calculate what the real differences are...

To the US consumer, this amp will cost approx. 1000 x 1.1 (sales tax) = 1100 USD which is the out the door cost to a US consumer

To the UK consumer, that same 1267 GBP amp which has the VAT included

Now, to look at why the amp is more expensive, we need to have the import costs of ~10% subtracted out because that's an ADDED COST of bringing a product into the UK, so now that's about 1140 GBP which would otherwise be the out the door cost to the UK consumer after the added taxes and fees levied by your government of our product. We do not have a choice in paying these added costs, which get passed onto the consumer in the end just like for all taxes.

That said, all of the taxes paid by importers and yourselves go to cover things that do greatly benefit you, things like your extensive public transportation system, health care and retirement programs. You might be shocked to learn that many of us Yanks pay on average ~$1500-$2000 USD/MONTH for the same healthcare that you receive as part of your government services. While comparing prices might seem like you are getting the short end of the stick, it's nowhere near that simple... the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence/pond. In fact, it's debatable that the stick is equally short on both ends  

Hope this helps.

 

 

[Al Krow]

@agedhorse that is very helpful, thank you. 

BUT doesn't explain why the US list price of Jim Bergantino's Forte HP is listed as $1,399 in the US and available for £1,399 including VAT, shipping, warehousing etc etc in UK?

OR why our collective experience is that something listed for a $100 in the US typically £100 in the UK allowing for all the additional costs you mentioned? 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Al Krow

[Beedster]

8 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Guys, I think you are (at least in part) misunderstanding some differences between how commerce is done the UK and commerce is done in the US, including HOW pricing is presented.

1. In the UK, your prices INCLUDE 20% VAT, in the US, our prices do NOT INCLUDE state sales tax (our version of your VAT), which runs between 9-10% average.

2. Importing into the UK costs roughly an additional 10-12% on top of this VAT for things like transportation, licensing, bonding, insurance, registration, and safety/EMC inspections and certificates.

3. There are some additional costs for warehousing, distribution and servicing/support which are generally covered by the importer of record, but of course this is a real cost as well.

So, as an example let's take an amp that is advertised for sells for and sells for $1000 in the US and calculate what the real differences are...

To the US consumer, this amp will cost approx. 1000 x 1.1 (sales tax) = 1100 USD which is the out the door cost to a US consumer

To the UK consumer, that same 1267 GBP amp which has the VAT included

Now, to look at why the amp is more expensive, we need to have the import costs of ~10% subtracted out because that's an ADDED COST of bringing a product into the UK, so now that's about 1140 GBP which would otherwise be the out the door cost to the UK consumer after the added taxes and fees levied by your government of our product. We do not have a choice in paying these added costs, which get passed onto the consumer in the end just like for all taxes.

That said, all of the taxes paid by importers and yourselves go to cover things that do greatly benefit you, things like your extensive public transportation system, health care and retirement programs. You might be shocked to learn that many of us Yanks pay on average ~$1500-$2000 USD/MONTH for the same healthcare that you receive as part of your government services. While comparing prices might seem like you are getting the short end of the stick, it's nowhere near that simple... the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence/pond. In fact, it's debatable that the stick is equally short on both ends  

Hope this helps.

 

 

That was a very interesting read and a perspective I hadn't considered, many thanks, it never does any harm to be reminded of how good things are here occasionally, especially given our media are so busy trying to do the opposite!

7 hours ago, Al Krow said:

BUT doesn't explain why the US list price of Jim Bergantino's Forte HP is listed as $1,399 in the US and available for £1,399 including VAT, shipping, warehousing etc etc in UK?

OR why our collective experience is that something listed for a $100 in the US typically £100 in the UK allowing for all the additional costs you mentioned? 

This problem still remains however.....