mcnach Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 11 hours ago, Al Krow said: @Phil Starr as ever, wise and measured words. Always appreciated. You have summarised mine and others' concerns about what Bugera are doing more eloquently than I have been able to. @mcnach, @Muzz gents, I share your collective exhaustion!! @bloodandtearsuk - congratulations on the purchase buddy. From the comments of those that have this amp already, you should be in for a treat and you know exactly what you're getting on the power front. And it does look like being amazing value. If this thread has been useful on that score, it's served its purpose. Look forward to hearing how you're getting on with it. My recommendation is not to skimp on your choice of cabs; get the best that you can afford (and maybe check out the used ones in the FS?). For me my cabs are just as important (if not more so!) a part of my sound as my amps. I second @Al Krow on the comment about the cabs. I don't have any real concerns about the amplifier, and if I were after a nice light amp with good features, I'd definitely be interested in trying it. But cabs... I'd be more cautious there. It makes a huge difference to get the right cabs. This doesn't mean you should not get the Bugera ones, but if I were you, I'd check what my needs AND budget are, and then see what my options are. Amplifiers, I've owned a few, some I was happier with than others, but they all did at least a reasonable job... however, cabs, god, that has been a long and expensive trip Don't rush if you don't have to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebozzz Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said: A perusal of the history of Behringer's shenanigans gives said claims plenty of credence. But if you must, look at the power consumption of the amp. It's 880 watts. That means if the Bugera/Behringer claim is true it puts out more than twice what it draws from the wall socket. That either means they're deliberately lying or they failed to pass grammar school level physics. Got anything else other than "ifs"? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Not sure if this has come up already in the 12 pages, but the quoted power consumption of 880 watts is the same as the GK MB800 Fusion. Since both amps have similar topology (Class D power amp, SMPS, preamp using 3 x 12AX7) and the power consumption has to be rated consistently for regulatory reasons, it would seem a reasonable guees that the output might be roughly in line with other manufacturers compact 800W bass heads. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Didn't Passinwind (not someone to exaggerate for effect) say something similar several pages back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebozzz Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Beer of the Bass said: Not sure if this has come up already in the 12 pages, but the quoted power consumption of 880 watts is the same as the GK MB800 Fusion. Since both amps have similar topology (Class D power amp, SMPS, preamp using 3 x 12AX7) and the power consumption has to be rated consistently for regulatory reasons, it would seem a reasonable guees that the output might be roughly in line with other manufacturers compact 800W bass heads. With the MB Fusion 800, GK doesn't clearly specify if the rated power output is Peak or RMS on their web page or in the manual. If it is indeed RMS, wouldn't 800 watts put the Peak value in the neighborhood of 2000 watts? Edited November 16, 2018 by ebozzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 Nah! Must resist. Must resist 😂 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgehouse Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Al Krow said: Nah! Must resist. Must resist 😂 You and me both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 4 hours ago, ebozzz said: With the MB Fusion 800, GK doesn't clearly specify if the rated power output is Peak or RMS on their web page or in the manual. If it is indeed RMS, wouldn't 800 watts put the Peak value in the neighborhood of 2000 watts? If the FULL power is 880 watts then best case would be 85% efficiency and that means about 750 watts for a class D amp and Switch Mode Power Supply. However if either power amp or power supply is linear then that would drop to sub 70% or 600 watts max of whatever type GK quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 Given the lengthy (repetitive, dull, exhausting, occasionally illuminating when you get wisdom from folk like Phil) debate on this topic and young master Cuzzie's (actually I got called "young man" at work the other day, made my day!) follow-on thread, I was minded to find out whether our US brothers and sisters would be more relaxed about Bugera's marketing and whether we Brits were just being a bit prudish about the whole thing. Exactly the same reaction in the US and pretty much the same proportions as over here. Over 125 responses in just two days and over 90% think that Bugera are being deliberately misleading. Some great comments there too including from a guy who is "Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz" who knows a thing or two about amps. I thought this quip from one of the other guys was hilarious: Behringer (Bugera) uses advertising company watts. Three ad execs stood there and said "Looks like 1500 watts to me", and another added "Hell no, look at that logo, that's a 2000 watt logo if I ever saw one". Given that Bugera have potentially got a really good and great value product here, someone at Bugera should fire their head of marketing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgehouse Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Al Krow said: Given the lengthy (repetitive, dull, exhausting, occasionally illuminating when you get wisdom from folk like Phil) debate on this topic and young master Cuzzie's (actually I got called "young man" at work the other day, made my day!) follow-on thread, I was minded to find out whether our US brothers and sisters would be more relaxed about Bugera's marketing and whether we Brits were just being a bit prudish about the whole thing. Exactly the same reaction in the US and pretty much the same proportions as over here. Over 125 responses in just two days and over 90% think that Bugera are being deliberately misleading. Some great comments there too including from a guy who is "Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz" who knows a thing or two about amps. I thought this quip from one of the other guys was hilarious: Behringer (Bugera) uses advertising company watts. Three ad execs stood there and said "Looks like 1500 watts to me", and another added "Hell no, look at that logo, that's a 2000 watt logo if I ever saw one". Given that Bugera have potentially got a really good and great value product here, someone at Bugera should fire their head of marketing. Au contraire, Blackadder - he should get a bonus. Look at all the internet traffic his idea has generated and how much talk there is here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, Bridgehouse said: Au contraire, Blackadder - he should get a bonus. Look at all the internet traffic his idea has generated and how much talk there is here. All publicity is good publicity right? Hmmm...where is Gerald Ratner now? 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 If in doubt listen to Hall and Oats That shoukd see you through the the personal crisis and help you over it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgehouse Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, krispn said: If in doubt listen to Hall and Oats That shoukd see you through the the personal crisis and help you over it! “Have you had your Oats?” etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebozzz Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 19 hours ago, Chienmortbb said: If the FULL power is 880 watts then best case would be 85% efficiency and that means about 750 watts for a class D amp and Switch Mode Power Supply. However if either power amp or power supply is linear then that would drop to sub 70% or 600 watts max of whatever type GK quote. Assuming that you meant the 750 watts figure is RMS, wouldn't the peak value be significantly higher? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, ebozzz said: Assuming that you meant the 750 watts figure is RMS, wouldn't the peak value be significantly higher? Usually, yes. But regardless of how the quoted power outputs are derived, if the Bugera really is putting out a similar amount of power to competing products that quote an output of less than half of what Bugera does, then it'd be fair to say that the 2000W figure is intended to mislead. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebozzz Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said: Usually, yes. But regardless of how the quoted power outputs are derived, if the Bugera really is putting out a similar amount of power to competing products that quote an output of less than half of what Bugera does, then it'd be fair to say that the 2000W figure is intended to mislead. I'm not sure how you connect the dots between Bugera listing peak only and GK listing what appears to be RMS only to reach the conclusion that Bugera is purposely being misleading. The company has openly stated that they do not believe that RMS is the rating system that provides the best indication of how a bass amp should perform. From what I've read, it doesn't seem that they feel peak is the best either but it may be better for rating bass amps in their opinion. We need a NEW & improved ratings system... Edited November 17, 2018 by ebozzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 46 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said: Usually, yes. But regardless of how the quoted power outputs are derived, if the Bugera really is putting out a similar amount of power to competing products that quote an output of less than half of what Bugera does, then it'd be fair to say that the 2000W figure is intended to mislead. Run, Martin, Run! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebozzz Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, mcnach said: Run, Martin, Run! Maybe he should! The premise here seems to be 90% of the manufacturers use RMS but Bugera doesn't. They MUST be trying to mislead. That's the only reason for them NOT using what the 90% are using! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Now you've got it. 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebozzz Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said: Now you've got it. 😀 No Bill, I really don't.....😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oopsdabassist Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, ebozzz said: No Bill, I really don't.....😉 Haven't...not don't!! Sheesh where do they breed the trolls nowadays??? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebozzz Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, Oopsdabassist said: Haven't...not don't!! Sheesh where do they breed the trolls nowadays??? Thanks for the correction! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oopsdabassist Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Welcome...I hope you have learned the lesson! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebozzz Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Oopsdabassist said: Welcome...I hope you have learned the lesson! Oh, you were teaching? 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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