Small wireless guitar system

[mrtcat]

For me latency is the killer with these things. I had a smoothound and as much as it was brilliantly made i used to hate roaming out front because i could hear and feel the latency. It was really offputting. 

Line 6 G50 these days but the whole 50 yards thing is just spiel. Probably 20 yards is the max I'd trust it to.

[Bridgehouse]

10 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

For me latency is the killer with these things. I had a smoothound and as much as it was brilliantly made i used to hate roaming out front because i could hear and feel the latency. It was really offputting. 

Line 6 G50 these days but the whole 50 yards thing is just spiel. Probably 20 yards is the max I'd trust it to.

The latency on the boss is noticeably better than the smoothhound in my experience

[Lozz196]

Yes, a mate put me onto the Boss WL20, saw his band play and he went right out into the audience, pretty much to the back of the venue and there were no noticeable issues. Not that I`m ever likely to do that, but to me that just reinforces that I`m even less likely to have any issues when I`m on stage with it.

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Bridgehouse said:

The latency on the boss is noticeably better than the smoothhound in my experience

2.3ms compared to 8ms.

That's not an insignificant difference.

[dmccombe7]

When you talk about latency its the time delay between hitting the note and hearing it i'm guessing here.

That being the case does that get worse the further away you are from the receiver or is it a fixed figure.

Is it that noticeable at even 8ms

Dave

[Bridgehouse]

18 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

When you talk about latency its the time delay between hitting the note and hearing it i'm guessing here.

That being the case does that get worse the further away you are from the receiver or is it a fixed figure.

Is it that noticeable at even 8ms

Dave

It’s constant and not variable - and it’s noticeable at 8ms - a bit like the difference between standing right next to your bass amp and standing 15m away from it

[dmccombe7]

I can't imagine noticing that, even at 8ms.

I ned to find out a lot more about this latency issue as i never gave that a thought to be honest.

I'll maybe ask our guitarist to bring his Line G30 in to try it at rehearsals

 

[Bridgehouse]

Just now, dmccombe7 said:

I can't imagine noticing that, even at 8ms.

I ned to find out a lot more about this latency issue as i never gave that a thought to be honest.

I'll maybe ask our guitarist to bring his Line G30 in to try it at rehearsals

 

In normal playing, you don’t notice it. I notice it when playing a complex rhythm that requires really accurate timing - it’s not so much that you hear it, but you feel it and it can trip you up a bit

[PaulWarning]

whats the latency on a 10 metre lead?

[Bridgehouse]

1 minute ago, PaulWarning said:

whats the latency on a 10 metre lead?

Effectively zero. 

But you’ll get capacitance (signal degradation) above about 5m

[Bridgehouse]

3 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

Effectively zero. 

But you’ll get capacitance (signal degradation) above about 5m

(Just for clarity, my “effectively zero” is about 0.03ms I reckon, assuming that the cable is pretty efficient and the signal is close to SOL)

[dmccombe7]

Just came across another BC thread from 2015 where Dood was revieing the Smooth Hound and Chris from Smooth Hound said the latency of 8ms was no worse than standing 8 feet away from your cab. Here is the exact reply :-

"Well, the exact latency is 7.68ms so 8ms is a little bit conservative!

A quick point about latency, sound travels in air at around 1 foot per millisecond so adding 8ms latency is the same as standing 8 feet farther away from your amplifier. Whether you're playing bass or lead doesn't really make any difference, it's all about the attack.

I appreciate the latency figure is not the lowest around and as EBS freak says, if you need to add a lot of additional latency (eg chain a bunch of digital effects and monitor through a digital desk) you could get to the point that it is noticeable.

All the comments we've had so far on latency though have been positive. People keep saying things like "No latency" which isn't strictly true!

Here's the link to the full thread :- 

 

[Bridgehouse]

19 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

Just came across another BC thread from 2015 where Dood was revieing the Smooth Hound and Chris from Smooth Hound said the latency of 8ms was no worse than standing 8 feet away from your cab. Here is the exact reply :-

"Well, the exact latency is 7.68ms so 8ms is a little bit conservative!

A quick point about latency, sound travels in air at around 1 foot per millisecond so adding 8ms latency is the same as standing 8 feet farther away from your amplifier. Whether you're playing bass or lead doesn't really make any difference, it's all about the attack.

I appreciate the latency figure is not the lowest around and as EBS freak says, if you need to add a lot of additional latency (eg chain a bunch of digital effects and monitor through a digital desk) you could get to the point that it is noticeable.

All the comments we've had so far on latency though have been positive. People keep saying things like "No latency" which isn't strictly true!

Here's the link to the full thread :- 

 

Whilst I agree, to an extent with this, the thing is that the 0.8ms latency won’t be the total latency you hear. 

As humans, we start to perceive latency at around 9/10 ms or so..

So, take the 8ms and stand 4 feet from your amp and you are at around about 12ms - Which is noticeable. (Well I think it is - you can “feel” it rather than “hear” it..)

Edited November 13, 2018 by Bridgehouse

[dmccombe7]

1 minute ago, Bridgehouse said:

Whilst I agree, to an extent with this, the thing is that the 0.8ms latency won’t be the total latency you hear. 

As humans, we start to perceive latency at around 0.9/1 ms or so..

So, take the 0.8ms and stand 4 feet from your amp and you are at around about 1.2ms - Which is noticeable. (Well I think it is - you can “feel” it rather than “hear” it..)

So the latency thing would be same as me walking out 10-15 feet with a lead and hearing a delay. I've done that with cables and i haven't really noticed anything. My cables are 4m from bass to pedals (Aphex compressor and polytune OR Roland GT6B and back to amp with another 4m cable. I normally move from front of amp to approx 2-3m out depending on style of band i'm in. 

I've just bought a Mesa head with in-built comp and i have a Korg rack tuner so wireless means no cables and no requirement for pedals with my new set up.

The Smooth Hound i think has a 5ms option you can select ? would need to confirm that. I'm guessing that would reduce range.

Dave

[Bridgehouse]

1 minute ago, dmccombe7 said:

So the latency thing would be same as me walking out 10-15 feet with a lead and hearing a delay. I've done that with cables and i haven't really noticed anything. My cables are 4m from bass to pedals (Aphex compressor and polytune OR Roland GT6B and back to amp with another 4m cable. I normally move from front of amp to approx 2-3m out depending on style of band i'm in. 

I've just bought a Mesa head with in-built comp and i have a Korg rack tuner so wireless means no cables and no requirement for pedals with my new set up.

The Smooth Hound i think has a 5ms option you can select ? would need to confirm that. I'm guessing that would reduce range.

Dave

Yes, but like anything it’s about context - there’s so much going on in a band scenario that you probably wouldn’t notice 1ms latency in a decent tight band. 

You’ll be listening more to the drummer than your own playing - and of course their latency will increase with distance just the same (speed of sound innit) 

Like I said, it only really makes a difference when you have some really accurate timing to hold down, or if you are recording, as your DAW chain will often have built in latency already. 

[Telebass]

Back to the original question: I used one of these the other night, and it was fine. I am usually on top of my amp, and my cables are in need of replacing, because I'm always standing on the damn things. So I like being untethered, no matter what. Even if I'm sat on the amp. I use no other pedals whatever except a tuner, occasionally not even that, so didn't notice latency. Our younger guitarist was also using one, and his pedalboard has its own postcode, with LOTS of effects, analogue and digital. No noticeable latency, and no crosstalk between the two.

I've ordered a gold one direct from China, £26 delivered. I'll also be having a dead Smoothhound for repairs and see if I can resuscitate it.

[EBS_freak]

PS latency makes a BIG difference if you are an inears user.

Even worse if you are singing at the same time.

[intime-nick]

7 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

PS latency makes a BIG difference if you are an inears user.

Even worse if you are singing at the same time.

This is very true. I have a Smoothound wireless and used it with my Helix LT into a digital mixer into a Sennheiser IEM system (I don’t use any backline). The latency was noticeable to the point of it being a distraction (I sing as well). Kept the same setup but used my Line6 XD-V75 wireless and the perceived latency issue disappeared.  Tried the other options on the Smoothound to reduce the latency but that rendered it very susceptible to dropouts.

In short, the Smoothound system is great if you use a conventional backline setup - my own experience with digital mixers and effects in the chain (each adding to the latency to be fair) meant that system didn’t work for me.  As an aside, I’ve now ditched the Helix and play directly from the line6 wireless XLR out straight into the mixer with IEMs and haven’t noticed any difference in latency from when I had the LT in the chain. 

Curious to try the Boss WL20 if only to reduce the amount of gear I take to gigs even further.

Edited November 16, 2018 by intime-nick

[EBS_freak]

14 hours ago, intime-nick said:

This is very true. I have a Smoothound wireless and used it with my Helix LT into a digital mixer into a Sennheiser IEM system (I don’t use any backline). The latency was noticeable to the point of it being a distraction (I sing as well). Kept the same setup but used my Line6 XD-V75 wireless and the perceived latency issue disappeared.  Tried the other options on the Smoothound to reduce the latency but that rendered it very susceptible to dropouts.

In short, the Smoothound system is great if you use a conventional backline setup - my own experience with digital mixers and effects in the chain (each adding to the latency to be fair) meant that system didn’t work for me.  As an aside, I’ve now ditched the Helix and play directly from the line6 wireless XLR out straight into the mixer with IEMs and haven’t noticed any difference in latency from when I had the LT in the chain. 

Curious to try the Boss WL20 if only to reduce the amount of gear I take to gigs even further.

Careful, there will be people along with pitchforks soon telling you that it's all in your mind! In todays digital world, there should be a lot of focus on the latency figures, especially with more and more digital offerings coming in at almost knock off prices.

Latency is a real thing... and I always raise an eyebrow when musicians say "there's no latency" and "I can't feel the feel 8ms" especially when they are also standing a considerable distance from their bass cab...

Edited November 16, 2018 by EBS_freak

[intime-nick]

Ha, maybe.  Everyone is different I suppose and some may be more susceptible to latency (although I do agree that more attention should be focussed on that aspect). I do think the Smoothound system is great value for money and, in my own personal experience, works well with a standard backline but no so much with IEMs & singing. 

[Telebass]

The latency is only important if it affects you. If, for whatever reason, you don't notice it, then it's irrelevant...

If something in your setup changes and you begin to notice, then fine, react to it. Otherwise: rock on!

[EBS_freak]

2 hours ago, Telebass said:

The latency is only important if it affects you. If, for whatever reason, you don't notice it, then it's irrelevant...

If something in your setup changes and you begin to notice, then fine, react to it. Otherwise: rock on!

Why would you buy something that doesn't give you scope to expand in the future?

[PaulWarning]

19 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Why would you buy something that doesn't give you scope to expand in the future?

because it's cheap, and sometimes it may well do the job for you

Edited November 16, 2018 by PaulWarning

[dmccombe7]

I always use a standard backline as band members like to feel the bass on stage so IEM system will not be an option for us plus i just don't fancy the idea of IEM.

I don't use anything between bass and amp since Mesa Mpulse has built in compressor that works ok and i have a rack tuner from the amp tuner socket. I don't expect to be much more than 2-4metres away from my amp at anytime when playing.

Because of that i'm leaning towards the Smoth Hound but the Boss system sounds interesting too altho i don't like the USB charging thing.

Gonna look into the Boss one a bit more just to make sure.

Comments on this thread have been really interesting and i would automatically went for the Smooth Hound had i not followed this thread. Now i'm giving it a lot more thought so many thanks to those that know a lot more about it than me.

Dave

Edited November 16, 2018 by dmccombe7

[Bridgehouse]

Dave - where are you based? I have both, you could try both of mine