How do you pull a decent tone an old Trace Elliot amp?

[project_c]

Played through an old Trace Elliot head / cab today and I could not get a decent tone out of that thing no matter what I did. I'm not sure of the exact model, looked like a similar era to the AH300, red gain knob, green volume knob, 'baked-in tone' on/off switch, going into a Trace 1048H 410 cab, and it just sounded terrible whatever I tried. It was boomy, honky and undefined, and the EQ was there, but not really helping. The gain either sounded like it wasn't being pushed, or it would suddenly sound like it was being pushed too hard and straight to fart city. Basically pretty much everything you don't want from a bass amp. I could also not dial out the horrible nu-metal tone that was lurking under all the woolly boxy terribleness. I was playing a Fender Jazz through it, no pedals, so nothing unusual there, but it was a struggle for sure. 

I'm not hating on TE, I have a knackered Commando combo which I love and use regularly, but I'm thinking I might be missing something with these old heads and cabs, anyone have any suggestions for how I can get something useful out of them next time?

 

[Jack]

Is it one of the ones where the eq switch is backwards? So pressing the switch in actually defeats the horrible preset eq curve?

 

Otherwise you just set the gain high and make the graphic eq look low a frown, should be easy if everything on the amp is working like it should.

[project_c]

1 hour ago, Jack said:

Is it one of the ones where the eq switch is backwards? So pressing the switch in actually defeats the horrible preset eq curve?

 

Otherwise you just set the gain high and make the graphic eq look low a frown, should be easy if everything on the amp is working like it should.

The switches were the right way round I think, I tried the preset curve out of desperation and was in instant 80s scoop hair metal land, but even that was still buried under the boomy boxy overall tone. The graphic eq seemed like it was working but nothing seemed to dial out the badness. I’ll try the frown next time, I must admit I didn’t try to scoop the mids too much because it seemed like they were the only thing worth keeping, but maybe that was the wrong approach.

[bertbass]

I never liked Trace Elliot.  Never could get a good sound out of them.  Good luck, maybe you'll succeed where I failed.

[BreadBin]

7 minutes ago, bertbass said:

I never liked Trace Elliot.  Never could get a good sound out of them.  Good luck, maybe you'll succeed where I failed.

I have the same issues with Ashdown gear.

[Osiris]

15 hours ago, project_c said:

Played through an old Trace Elliot head / cab today and I could not get a decent tone out of that thing no matter what I did. I'm not sure of the exact model, looked like a similar era to the AH300, red gain knob, green volume knob, 'baked-in tone' on/off switch, going into a Trace 1048H 410 cab, and it just sounded terrible whatever I tried. It was boomy, honky and undefined, and the EQ was there, but not really helping. The gain either sounded like it wasn't being pushed, or it would suddenly sound like it was being pushed too hard and straight to fart city. Basically pretty much everything you don't want from a bass amp. I could also not dial out the horrible nu-metal tone that was lurking under all the woolly boxy terribleness. I was playing a Fender Jazz through it, no pedals, so nothing unusual there, but it was a struggle for sure. 

I'm not hating on TE, I have a knackered Commando combo which I love and use regularly, but I'm thinking I might be missing something with these old heads and cabs, anyone have any suggestions for how I can get something useful out of them next time?

 

I had an SMX rig for several years, made up of a 250 watt 1215 combo and 1153 cab and I could never get a sound out of it that I was happy with. Unfortunately I was not in the position to be able to replace it until about 10 years or so after I'd bought it so I had to live with it. A lot of guys on here love the Trace sound, but I could never get it to work for me. I found that it was gutless and under-powered and couldn't deliver any bass or mid frequencies with any conviction, in my experience. Whatever you did with it - and there are a ton of tone shaping options on the SMX - there was always that ice-pick top end thing going on that I just could not get rid of whatever I did with it. Trace gear has a reputation for being punchy and powerful, but my rig was neither. On a good night you could get a mediocre sound out of it, the rest of the time it was just top end clank and not much else. I grew to hate it with a passion. After about 10 years or so the pre-amp developed a fault and I ended up using an original Bass POD as a pre-amp going straight into the effects loop return and all the missing low end and mids were suddenly available and that omnipresent sharpness to the treble was gone. And as for Trace watt's being twice as loud as everyone else's, err, no, not in my experience they're not.   

Likewise I'm not trying to derail the thread into a Trace bashing fest, but if you are struggling to get a sound out of it that you are happy with, as I did, then maybe try using an external pre-amp pedal with it? Or even ditching it in favour of another amp altogether if that is an option?   

[paul_5]

I did something similar with an Ampeg preamp; sounded pretty darn good afterwards... 😉

[andytoad]

Did the same to a GP7, you could really boost presence through the effects loop. Much better than through the pre.

[VTypeV4]

I liked my Trace 1048H until I tried the Peavey 410TXF - it was so much more 'me'..

Flatten your EQ then dip the 1K (1K3?) and 2K (2K6?) sliders a little (or a lot) - the old Celestion drivers can sound a bit hard around this area IME. The 1K should help reduce the boxy / hard thing and the 2K should help get rid of the harsh / ice pick bite. Leave the pre-shape switched out (for now) and if you need a bit more top, add 5K - don't be afraid of that - see how you go from there.. Lastly, reduce the 50Hz slider as it's all boom - if you need bottom, add at 100hz instead..

[Lozz196]

Yep, I`ve found when using TE cabs that they are like ice-picks in that upper mid area. I`m fine with the amps, just the cabs but now I`m aware of what to do to get them sounding ok-ish - pretty much exactly how @VTypeV4 explains as above, well I`ll use them if needs must. But in all honesty I do prefer not to.

[Osiris]

32 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Yep, I`ve found when using TE cabs that they are like ice-picks in that upper mid area. I`m fine with the amps, just the cabs but now I`m aware of what to do to get them sounding ok-ish - pretty much exactly how @VTypeV4 explains as above, well I`ll use them if needs must. But in all honesty I do prefer not to.

That's an interesting observation, @Lozz196. Which cabs did you find had the ice-pick high end?

I personally found the opposite with my rig - the speakers were fine once they were paired with another amp or a pre-amp bypassing the SMX one. That was a pair of the original Trace branded Kevlar 15's and a horn in the combo, which was dialled low or even out altogether.

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, Osiris said:

That's an interesting observation, @Lozz196. Which cabs did you find had the ice-pick high end?

I personally found the opposite with my rig - the speakers were fine once they were paired with another amp or a pre-amp bypassing the SMX one. That was a pair of the original Trace branded Kevlar 15's and a horn in the combo, which was dialled low or even out altogether.

Most of the ones I`ve used to be honest, but mainly the ones with 10 inch speakers, and especially the 610. Not been too bad with the ones containing 15 inch speakers. I know speaker size isn`t an indicator of sound, but in general I`ve found that the TE cabs containing 15s seem to be voiced to be lower/less trebly. The 1x15 TE combos have been ok after knocking down those mids a tad, but a mate of mine had a 1x12 combo - no idea what range - and it seemed it just hit that spot where it was the dominant sound in the mix no matter what else was going on, and no adjusting eq would defeat it.

[Osiris]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

Most of the ones I`ve used to be honest, but mainly the ones with 10 inch speakers, and especially the 610. Not been too bad with the ones containing 15 inch speakers. I know speaker size isn`t an indicator of sound, but in general I`ve found that the TE cabs containing 15s seem to be voiced to be lower/less trebly. The 1x15 TE combos have been ok after knocking down those mids a tad, but a mate of mine had a 1x12 combo - no idea what range - and it seemed it just hit that spot where it was the dominant sound in the mix no matter what else was going on, and no adjusting eq would defeat it.

Cheers @Lozz196

[stewblack]

I think the first thing I'd try is a different cab but honestly we just prefer certain amps and cabs. Personal taste. I adore TE stuff especially through MarkBass cabs. Can't get on with the Markbass amp I have. I get great results from  a Behringer amp paired with a Barefaced cab but less so with other more fêted and rated amps. Suck it and see I guess.

[burno70]

I thought this was a trick question!

I love TE amps (back in the day). Never used their cabs though.

[TheGreek]

Big, Big Trace Elliot lover...I think I may have mentioned it before...

I don't understand why you can't get a tone you like...I think that there in lies the problem...the tone I want from an amp and the tone YOU want from an amp may be different. I love a phat, "cappuccino" tone - I hate an over-driven rock tone. If that's what you're after it may be that a TE is not the kiddie for you.

This may explain why I hated the Darkglass M900.

[discreet]

I acquired a TE combo quite recently and found it difficult to get the sound I wanted from it. But with perseverance I got there. As said above, you need the gain way up, as you do with an Ashdown. And the graphic EQ works a lot better if you cut instead of boost - flatten everything then cut the low lows - you don't need 'em. And cut the presets, too.

I also didn't need the high highs or high mids, either. Nor did I need 500kHz, which is a hurty frequency for me, but it cuts through a mix like nothing else if you need to! Trace amps are for gigging with. They don't sound so great solo. But get them in concert and they can sound very lush, with great power, articulation and slam. That's what they are made to do. Definitely not a Class D amp.  Couple that with their legendary build quality and reliability and you've really got something.

Modern mainstream amps are made to sound good solo in a shop, in your house, in your man-cave - and setting the EQ flat is usually a reasonable starting point. It's a sales thing. But that may not be the tone you actually want to be gigging with - in fact it almost certainly isn't. The EQ facilities on a Trace aren't there for show and time spent finding a sound that is best for you and your band is time well spent.

I moved my TE combo on because I imagined it was too heavy, but I really missed it. So much so that I've just snagged another on the Bay and am picking it up at the weekend.

Edited October 11, 2018 by discreet

[project_c]

2 hours ago, TheGreek said:

Big, Big Trace Elliot lover...I think I may have mentioned it before...

I don't understand why you can't get a tone you like...I think that there in lies the problem...the tone I want from an amp and the tone YOU want from an amp may be different. I love a phat, "cappuccino" tone - I hate an over-driven rock tone. If that's what you're after it may be that a TE is not the kiddie for you.

This may explain why I hated the Darkglass M900.

Nope, I hate ‘rock tone’ more than you can imagine. I was rehearsing with a jazz band, I just wanted a nice useable j bass tone, bridge pickup / tone off territory. I normally play gigs through a Genz Shuttle, and pretty much have it flat with a bit of occasional high cut, and it does a great job. The TE sounded like a rusty bucket, but I think I should have been a bit more patient with the eq, I just gave up after an hour of fiddling between songs. The whole band commented on how terrible it sounded so it wasn’t just my imagination. My dusty old TE Commando combo sounds great with both my j basses btw. 

[andytoad]

3 hours ago, TheGreek said:

Big, Big Trace Elliot lover...I think I may have mentioned it before...

I don't understand why you can't get a tone you like...I think that there in lies the problem...the tone I want from an amp and the tone YOU want from an amp may be different. I love a phat, "cappuccino" tone - I hate an over-driven rock tone. If that's what you're after it may be that a TE is not the kiddie for you.

This may explain why I hated the Darkglass M900.

I still have the twin, sounds great, rarely gets an outing though. I have an SWR 6x10 for it

[Osiris]

10 hours ago, TheGreek said:

Big, Big Trace Elliot lover...I think I may have mentioned it before...

I don't understand why you can't get a tone you like...I think that there in lies the problem...the tone I want from an amp and the tone YOU want from an amp may be different. I love a phat, "cappuccino" tone - I hate an over-driven rock tone. If that's what you're after it may be that a TE is not the kiddie for you.

This may explain why I hated the Darkglass M900.

Although I occasionally use a touch of low gain drive (definitely not balls out distortion) to add some richness to my sound, my default tone is clean, with a bias for a Precision or Jazz neck pup, relatively flat with a slight bump to the low mids. But my SMX just could not deliver, in more than 30 years of playing it's the one amp I have used that I could not get a workable sound out of without having to plug something else into it. But as you say, tone is a personal thing. 

Having said that, I recently pickup up one of the new Transit B pre-amps as I'm about to make the move to IEM's and it looked to be the perfect all in one amp replacement. Despite my trepidation based on my previous underwhelming TE experience it does seem to have the heft, depth and punch that Trace are famous for - that was very much sadly lacking from my SMX, so maybe mine was a Friday afternoon special? But the Transit B still has that ice pick top end thing going on that grates on me so it's looking for a new home.

[TheGreek]

7 hours ago, Osiris said:

the Transit B still has that ice pick top end thing going on that grates on me so it's looking for a new home.

Yours is the first review of the Transit B I've read.

I suspect that when TE originally built the new Elf and the Transit B they were one unit but for some reason TE decided to market them as two. I had hoped to pick up the Transit unit to mate with the Elf ( lots of little puppies) in the hope that I'd get something resembling an original Trace tonal palette. Still waiting to hear from others whether this a reality.

[discreet]

8 hours ago, TheGreek said:

I had hoped to pick up the Transit unit to mate with the Elf ( lots of little puppies) in the hope that I'd get something resembling an original Trace tonal palette. Still waiting to hear from others whether this a reality.

You know, I doubt it, as the new Trace stuff just isn't like the old Trace stuff... I could be wrong, though.   Meanwhile, this just arrived...

Edited October 12, 2018 by discreet

[stewblack]

6 hours ago, discreet said:

You know, I doubt it, as the new Trace stuff just isn't like the old Trace stuff... I could be wrong, though. Meanwhile, this just arrived...

flip me that is a pornographic picture.

[discreet]

1 minute ago, stewblack said:

flip me that is a pornographic picture.

Too right, I took it wearing only pants.

[stewblack]

19 minutes ago, discreet said:

Too right, I took it wearing only pants.

I will put some on before I look at it again.