Is volume killing smaller gigs?

[discreet]

15 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

It really is all about the drummer tho.

It really is. If you're unfortunate enough to be playing with a belligerent shed-builder, you have few options.

[TimR]

On 19/09/2018 at 14:08, Lozz196 said:

A drummer I know will only play with rim-shots. It`s actually painful at times. He insists that`s just how he plays, and for everything else he`s faultless, the most accurate timing drummer I`ve ever played with. But due to said rim-shots he has to mic his own bass drum up and have an amp by his side as otherwise he can`t hear it. Essentially for most pub sized venues he would make any band he was in not bookable - at least not for a second booking.

I’ve found the best solution for this was to put earplugs in when I pulled up to the practice room, otherwise just being in the room during setting up was painful. 

[Norris]

The pub we played in tonight was snug with only 30 people in there. It's tiny. We really had to watch the volume. Great evening 

[drTStingray]

I think we're suffering from a resurgence of the '70s Rock drummer syndrome'. Messrs Bonham and Moon may be ok in a stadium but people trying to play like them in a small pub is plain daft unless the band is exactly that genre perhaps. I have come across these sort of drummers, playing fills over entire bars (music bars...), using double bass drum pedals so always playing a roll where one bass drum beat should be, (including on reggae - and on beats one and three instead of just three). 

These guys seem to take pleasure in the physical work out and rather than using the wrists to play are actually using the entire body to create the power....

Of course, back in the early 80s many drummers got replaced with drum machines for financial reasons - or was it the ability for the band, duo or whatever to control the volume 😏

 

 

Edited September 24, 2018 by drTStingray

[uk_lefty]

I would hate to see an insanely loud band. If I can't order a drink without shouting at the bar staff I won't stick around.

I had our band change to a bigger rehearsal room to get the use of better kit but also because the smaller rooms created the effect of greater volume. It costs us a bit more but it's more productive and it's not ripping everyone's ears out.

Interestingly (to me at least) I wore my ACS ear plugs at my gig this weekend as I always do at rehearsal but not always for gigs. I had them connected with the transparent rubber string so I could let them hang loose on my neck. I kept being told they looked "cool". No idea! Even if someone told me I looked like a twunt I'd keep them in. I don't sleep well after gigs and rehearsals if the volume is up to the point it's like there's an elephant gang bang on top of my head. Wearing the ear plugs really helps get rid of the head pounding after rehearsals. 

[Lozz196]

15 hours ago, TimR said:

I’ve found the best solution for this was to put earplugs in when I pulled up to the practice room, otherwise just being in the room during setting up was painful. 

If I recall correctly Tim, you depped with said drummer/band for a while?

[TimR]

Yes. Did 3 or 4 gigs with them. It was fun. 

He played with the band I was in for an outdoor bbq, and was rock solid. Wouldn’t ask him to play indoors for a function band though. 

[51m0n]

My band is pretty loud. 7 piece bands with horns and percussion and drums and keys and guitar and bass will do that.

However we try to keep stage volume as sane as possible. We mic everything for every gig. But for monitor mixes as much as anything (a lot of the tracks are cue driven, if anyone cant hear everyone else enough then they cant hear the cues and we train wreck :D).

I tend to put enough kick in the FOH to hear the bass extension that brings to it, add snare to match and a touch of a mono OH to bring out the hats more than anything. Now we are talking a touch really hear, definitely not trying to prove anything, just lift the top of the drums forward into the mix a little.

Bass is DI'ed, now I have a BigTwin and that thing can easily deal with any pub in the land on its own, but I turn it up for the stage volume and add enough to front of house to keep it projecting, mainly because that way the top end is muffled by my capacious butt, instead its coming out of the FOH  (a pair of FR800s, so the same cab effectively as the Big Baby - it can deal with bass all day).

Guitar is mic'ed so I can keep his amp as quiet as possible and run his monitor guitar heavy instead, its pointing away from the audience so that means I can lift the guitar into the audience through the PA which means none of that laser like guitar cab quality whereby the guitarist turns up and if you are sat in front of his amp 30 feet away you're effectively deaf for a week. He also uses a tilt back amp stand - anything to get the guitar loud for him and quieter for everyone else. He is not a loud guitarist and certainly not a selfish player, he understands why he needs to get his level by pointing everything at his head in order to better control volume in the venue.

Keys brought up in PA, he uses IEMs so he controls his own monitor mix, as does the percussion. Percussion is always tricky, a lot of it is very quiet compared to drums, some of it is scary loud, I mic all of it (I have the channels so why not), works a treat, can balance him to the drums in the room beautifully, but it does take up to 5 mics to do that.

Horns are special, bass trombone is mega loud when you're too close, but needs a little help at the back of the room, its mic'ed for the fatness that disappears futher than 6 feet from it. Our trumpet player uses a harmoniser (sweep pedal controlled) to self harmonise on the fly - I have no idea how she manages that) but this does mean she must be mic'ed too, even though of all the instruments in the band she needs it the least in a pub.

We often play in medium sized pubs. We get there early to set all the gear up and have several times had the landlord come over and say, I think you might be a bit loud? Or words to that effect. Only ever happens once though because of the way we play the first set. We tend to soundcheck at a fair whack, but the set starts off at a whisper and we grow the volume very slowly over the next 45 to 50 minutes (which is the length of our first piece), at the end of which we are bouncing along at about 80%. A couple of short (9 minute) tracks later and we stop for a 10 minute break. Then its into the really funky set (the first is darker and more jazz in places). By the end of the first set the place is usually jumping and we get no more requests to turn down - more meat in a venue does help, plus everyone is busy telling the landlord its great so he feels too daft to ask us to curtail anything. Always always tell the punter to go grab a drink in between sets, the landlord loves that!

Last gig we played was at Lewes Con Club, had a sound guy, who was fantastic, within 3 or 4 minutes of the first track we had 3 rows of dancing happy punters, they kept at it for 2 whole hours. Best gig I have played in years, on stage sound was great, I only had to worry about playing not doing sound (FOH and 6 monitor mixes is a head spinner at the best of times), and the punters loved our stuff and bought the EP and T-shirts enough to double our take. In the room though (far bigger than a medium sized pub) we were about the same level as we are in a pub.

Although we are loud, we sound really good, and people enjoy it, dance and drink a lot as a result. Seems to keep the landlords very happy indeed!

 

Edited October 1, 2018 by 51m0n

[DaytonaRik]

The current gigging band has the right approach - minimal  backline and the understanding that it is there to get the sound into the PA, not fight to hear over it.  Each band member has their own dedicated monitor mix - either a wedge or IEMS (I agree that getting a guitarist to go to IEM is like trying to herd cats/plat fog etc) and understand that the PA does the work, the monitors let you "fill in the gaps' re what you can't hear on stage and consequently rehearsals and gig are a joy.  Backline is completely stripped down - both guitarists use a couple of 1x12 cabs, I'm only taking a single 2x10 cab and could probably just DI into the PA if I'm completely honest.

I went to see a former band play and the drummer (who is not shy with the kick drum) could barely be heard above the backline/vocal only PA .

I suppose that some get it, some don't?  

 

[mrtcat]

No backline at all. It's the way forward. 

[DaytonaRik]

You have a very enlightened guitarist.  I think getting ours onto IEMs and away from hearing their backline would help massively. 

[mrtcat]

24 minutes ago, DaytonaRik said:

You have a very enlightened guitarist.  I think getting ours onto IEMs and away from hearing their backline would help massively. 

He was the one who initially suggested it. The less gear and set up time the better in his eyes. We both use a helix and it's been such a revelation. 

[Japhet]

On ‎24‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 01:07, drTStingray said:

I think we're suffering from a resurgence of the '70s Rock drummer syndrome'. Messrs Bonham and Moon may be ok in a stadium but people trying to play like them in a small pub is plain daft unless the band is exactly that genre perhaps. I have come across these sort of drummers, playing fills over entire bars (music bars...), using double bass drum pedals so always playing a roll where one bass drum beat should be, (including on reggae - and on beats one and three instead of just three). 

These guys seem to take pleasure in the physical work out and rather than using the wrists to play are actually using the entire body to create the power....

Of course, back in the early 80s many drummers got replaced with drum machines for financial reasons - or was it the ability for the band, duo or whatever to control the volume 😏

 

 

The ability to keep the beat would be bliss though. Drives me nuts when our drummer constantly slows stuff down and it's hopeless trying to drag him along at the right speed.

[mrtcat]

1 hour ago, Japhet said:

The ability to keep the beat would be bliss though. Drives me nuts when our drummer constantly slows stuff down and it's hopeless trying to drag him along at the right speed.

A drummer that can't keep time has to go. It's miserable for you as a bass player and even worse for punters who want to dance, tap along or even just enjoy listening. 

[Muzz]

4 hours ago, mrtcat said:

No backline at all. It's the way forward. 

That's almost exactly our setup (including the tent/yurt on several occasions this summer), except we only have one sub and one mic...and a smaller kit 😀

[ead]

This is us post-set-up and sound check ready for a bikers rally gig last weekend.  There was a good sound man out the front who helped us with all the set up and soundcheck as well as live tweakery during the show.

The big stack to the left is the PA stuff (not ours).  The guitarist has the small whitish amp/cab; the kit was well mic'ed up for this gig; the acoustic guitar went through the fender combo you can see to the right of the kit (but is only used on around 30% of the set), and my Barefaced Super Compact and Streamliner rig is far right (with the unfeasibly bright blue light).

We played to around 500 people apparently and we had very good feedback on the sound quality and, thankfully, the performance too 

[cheddatom]

No I've got the smallest equipment! 😛

[ead]

13 minutes ago, cheddatom said:

No I've got the smallest equipment! 😛

I'll confirm to Mrs ead that no matter what she thinks it's definitely not me.  Phew....

[Muzz]

I'm glad people feel comfortable enough to admit it, though...very brave... 🙂

[Lozz196]

8 hours ago, DaytonaRik said:

The current gigging band has the right approach - minimal  backline and the understanding that it is there to get the sound into the PA, not fight to hear over it.  Each band member has their own dedicated monitor mix - either a wedge or IEMS (I agree that getting a guitarist to go to IEM is like trying to herd cats/plat fog etc) and understand that the PA does the work, the monitors let you "fill in the gaps' re what you can't hear on stage and consequently rehearsals and gig are a joy.  Backline is completely stripped down - both guitarists use a couple of 1x12 cabs, I'm only taking a single 2x10 cab and could probably just DI into the PA if I'm completely honest.

I went to see a former band play and the drummer (who is not shy with the kick drum) could barely be heard above the backline/vocal only PA .

I suppose that some get it, some don't?  

 

That all looks like a pretty decent, sensible backline to me. I`m pretty prehistoric, like to see amps etc, but I think that is the perfect blend - well certainly visually anyway.

[mrtcat]

7 hours ago, Muzz said:

That's almost exactly our setup (including the tent/yurt on several occasions this summer), except we only have one sub and one mic...and a smaller kit 😀

We've never played so many tipi's before. Pretty sure we played in the same one 20+ times lol

[Woodinblack]

We played one just like that last month!

[DaytonaRik]

12 hours ago, mrtcat said:

He was the one who initially suggested it. The less gear and set up time the better in his eyes. We both use a helix and it's been such a revelation. 

I'm originally a guitarist but I was a very early adopter of IEMs (excluding the pro guys) and it just made sense to me - a mix wherever you go inside an earplug that prevents hearing damage...what's not to like?  With modern options such as Helix, BIAS-FX, Kempers etc I just can't see a need for backline!  Our drummer does like to hear a bit of bass next to him though hence me not ditching everything and just going DI

7 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

That all looks like a pretty decent, sensible backline to me. I`m pretty prehistoric, like to see amps etc, but I think that is the perfect blend - well certainly visually anyway.

Cheers @Lozz196 - i think that if we're going to use backline then it's a sensible setup.  Both guitarists now use Victory heads that can run around 7w.  At a gig one even said "I'm swamping the FOH mix, I'll turn down!"  As long as there is a suitable monitor source then backline is just a way of delivering sound to the FOH system.  I wish more musicians understood that simple principle - the louder you are as an individual the more problems you cause for everyone else and the less control the engineer/unfortunate band member who runs the desk has over things...as a band your volume in any venue is only as quiet as the loudest on-stage performer.