Fretless flat fingerboard - no radius = any insights?

[EMG456]

Big birthday year for me and being celebrated in the time honoured fashion of having a new bass made.

So I have a build in progress with Alan Cringean at ACG.

It's a six string fretless and I've gone with what is becoming a standard feature of ACG's - a completely flat fingerboard.

Anyone using a bass setup like that and if so, what are your perceptions? Like/ dislike?

All of my basses so far are radiused and I don't think it's too late to change my mind so any informed opinions welcome.

[naxos10]

I have two ACG's with flat fingerboards and like this feature a lot, so much so that I when I play a bass with a radius it takes a bit of getting used to.

[eude]

I've been playing ACGs for many years now, and have always had a flat board as standard.

It didn't feel all that different to start off with and now feels completely normal to me. The only little thing, which is more likely a quirk of my technique is that strumming double stops on the higher strings takes a little getting used to as it doesn't feel quite as natural, but it's only really something I did in my youth and mainly on 4 strings.

I have a fretless 6er from Alan and it's unbelievably good! What spec are you going for?

Eude

[ikay]

I've had an ACG fretless 5 string for 8 years and the flat board felt quite natural from day one. I regularly chop and change between basses with different radius boards with no problem. Don't really notice it to be honest. My playing doesn't involve much in the way of double stops or chord work (way above my pay grade) but I can see that might be a bit trickier on a flat board. If I was speccing a custom ACG again the only change I'd make is to have a slightly less pronounced asymmetric profile on the neck which is a bit chunky on the bass side.

[EMG456]

Thanks for the replies all - it seems you all like the flat board so I think I'll go with it - variety being the spice of life and all that!

eude - it's going to be an Uber spec. 32" scale headless, with the multicoil pickups and the new(ish) DFM preamp. Body shape is the first of a new model, based on Alan's Reiver Guitars Kompakt model. Oh, and a completely mental ART top!

ikay - Alan was saying that the neck carve he is doing now is less pronounced than he has done in the past so that will be interesting to me. Again, I don't have any with an asymmetric carve - brave new world!

[eude]

16 minutes ago, EMG456 said:

Thanks for the replies all - it seems you all like the flat board so I think I'll go with it - variety being the spice of life and all that!

eude - it's going to be an Uber spec. 32" scale headless, with the multicoil pickups and the new(ish) DFM preamp. Body shape is the first of a new model, based on Alan's Reiver Guitars Kompakt model. Oh, and a completely mental ART top!

ikay - Alan was saying that the neck carve he is doing now is less pronounced than he has done in the past so that will be interesting to me. Again, I don't have any with an asymmetric carve - brave new world!

Sounds great mate!
Alan had mentioned there might be a Kompakt bass model on the cards.
Great specs too, can't wait to see it develop!

Don't worry about the neck carve, every single one that I've played has been very comfortable. It really makes sense on a 6 string bass too, as it helps you get your technique right, especially when combined with the flat board.

Eude

[4000]

I don't generally like flat boards (with the odd exception); they don't generally feel natural to me. In fact I generally prefer more of a vintage radius.

I remember an article in a bass book I have somewhere (forget the name) where IIRC the author said he had a fretless neck made with a flat-ish radius and couldn't work out why he didn't get on with it until he played another with a much more heavily radiused board, which he much preferred. I believe he then had his board reshaped.

It's one of those things you probably have to try to know.

[EMG456]

53 minutes ago, 4000 said:

I don't generally like flat boards (with the odd exception); they don't generally feel natural to me. In fact I generally prefer more of a vintage radius.

…………………………………….

It's one of those things you probably have to try to know.

Can I ask what the odd exceptions might have been?

This is the perennial problem with having instruments made - you can't try it before you buy it!

[EMG456]

 

1 hour ago, eude said:

Sounds great mate!
Alan had mentioned there might be a Kompakt bass model on the cards.
Great specs too, can't wait to see it develop!

Don't worry about the neck carve, every single one that I've played has been very comfortable. It really makes sense on a 6 string bass too, as it helps you get your technique right, especially when combined with the flat board.

Eude

I've got a couple of pics of the rough body carve - I'll start a build thread for it so y'all can share the drama! 

[4000]

3 hours ago, EMG456 said:

Can I ask what the odd exceptions might have been?

This is the perennial problem with having instruments made - you can't try it before you buy it!

I've had the same issue in the past, and probably will in the future. When I had my first 4 string Sei built I didn't specify the radius - never even occurred to me at the time - and it didn't feel right to me; the radius was much flatter than I was used to and I just couldn't really adapt to it. That'll be changed on the next one (that's assuming I ever manage to get to the ordering stage - the universe seems to have it in for me this year, financially speaking, and every time I get the money together I'm hit with some vast expense out of the blue). I think a flat radius with smaller frets is my worst possible combination. 

The main exception was my old '91 Warwick Dolphin Pro 1. Somehow that neck, despite being all wrong on paper (chunky, relatively flat radius), just felt really, really comfortable. The exceptions generally have been Warwicks, although certainly not all Warwicks. For instance I never really got on with my '91 Streamer Stage 1. 

EDIT: The book was What Bass by Laurence Canty and Tony Bacon. The player was Laurence Canty; I've just checked and he said when his first fretless was built he requested it had the same curvature as his fretted and he then spent a couple of years being uncomfortable on it. He said he discovered his mistake when playing a de-fretted Fender with a rounder fingerboard which instantly felt much better. He offered good advice actually, he said that before ordering his second fretless he played several "conversions" and had his favourite measured so the fingerboard would be identical. 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by 4000

[EMG456]

It's all very subjective too. Interesting you mentioning Warwicks- I like the look and sound of many Warwicks but have never enjoyed playing any I have ever tried. I know they're good but just don't seem to be for me.

Fortunately, I'm only about an hour away from ACG HQ so I'll probably take a run down and spend some time with a couple of examples.

[Mastodon2]

I love a flat radius board, or a very shallow radius. For me I find it helps with faster playing more than anything as the consistent spacing and the way the strings are laid out (in a line across the bass, rather than an arc) it helps my hand find the next string very consistently and easily. I'm sure the net difference on bass is fairly small, it's a comfort thing as much as anything - with no radius to worry about, the neck can be nice and thin.

If anyone plays electric guitar, try playing something with a fairly heavy radius like vintage Fender or one of their modern "retro" models and then play an 80s Ibanez RG, you'll feel like you've jumped out of a Ford Granada and into an F1 car. 

[4000]

1 hour ago, Mastodon2 said:

I love a flat radius board, or a very shallow radius. For me I find it helps with faster playing more than anything as the consistent spacing and the way the strings are laid out (in a line across the bass, rather than an arc) it helps my hand find the next string very consistently and easily. I'm sure the net difference on bass is fairly small, it's a comfort thing as much as anything - with no radius to worry about, the neck can be nice and thin.

If anyone plays electric guitar, try playing something with a fairly heavy radius like vintage Fender or one of their modern "retro" models and then play an 80s Ibanez RG, you'll feel like you've jumped out of a Ford Granada and into an F1 car. 

Again, I don't really find this, even with guitars (and I do play guitar). I don't know if the fact I have double-jointed thumbs (a la Jaco) helps in some way.  

[Mastodon2]

2 minutes ago, 4000 said:

Again, I don't really find this, even with guitars (and I do play guitar). I don't know if the fact I have double-jointed thumbs (a la Jaco) helps in some way.  

Your thumbs don't matter, it's all about personal preference.

[4000]

Of course it's all ultimately about personal preference, but it's perfectly possible that my thumbs have an effect on my left hand technique and may affect my preference. What I meant was, maybe it feels different to me because it affects the position of my hand when playing, so a flatter radius no longer becomes such an advantage to me when playing fast. It certainly doesn't seem to help me play faster. I was simply wondering aloud if the increased flexibility of my hand when using a more rounded board negates some of the advantages experienced by others using a flatter board.  

Edited September 19, 2018 by 4000

[Chopthebass]

I had an Overwater with a flat board (thanks Owen) and loved the feel.

So much so that all my current builds all have zero radius.