rubis Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 What is thermal and sonic treatment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 1 hour ago, rubis said: What is thermal and sonic treatment? Thermal is like roasted maple necks etc .... I guess helps make wood dryer like older wood would be. sonic treatment is the idea that the wood sounds better on old instruments because the music has changed the structure of the wood or something? That one I don’t really get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Yamaha do this too. It’s basically they subject the finished bodies to vibrations which simulates ‘ X hours of playing’ and the thermal treatment is a process of drying to wood to recreate aging. Sandberg have worked with some local university’s to look at optimising the two processes. Yamaha unfortunately calls it I.R.A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 The guys at both companies will tell you it makes a difference and you’ll find employees sticking their instruments in the vibration machines - it’s not gonna do any harm right and if it makes your instrument ‘better’...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuzzie Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 @rubis in Sandbergs case approx 100 hrs of specifically chosen frequencies are vibrates through the bass. This is constant and non stop. Thermal is as you suspect the wood is maintained at a temperature, or sometimes is heated and brought down all within a very tight range. Some people will or won’t agree that an older bass having been played sounds better as wood matures. Without getting into the nitty gritty too much, Wood is a cellular porous material, allowing it to mature in these ways will have some effect on its cellular structure and resonance for the good. I am sure someone will say Mumbo jumbo, but Yamaha do something similar with their A.R.E. Technique. Its nothing new, if you look at things like violins etc. They get better with age Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuzzie Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 @krispn got in there before me! ARE also stands for acoustic resonance enhancement. as he said, may work, may not, but it does no harm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Yeah, but are they any good for metal? I think we should be told... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Especially for metal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 (edited) Yep: may or may not work, but the marketing departments love it 😉 For the record, I loved the BB2024 I played for a while one afternoon at Bass Direct, and might have bought it were it not £2.5k*, and one of the nicest precisions I've ever played was a RW...just a shame it was all scuffed in exactly the same places as the one hanging next to it... 🙂 * but hey, all that toasting and wobbling's gotta be paid for somehow, right? 🙂 Edited September 23, 2018 by Muzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuzzie Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 @Muzz you dodged a bullet there, could have been tragic, thank goodness you ended up with a bass that has a unique colour different to any other out there.....😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Again for the record, I don't have any coloured basses, and the woods on all mine are unique...as are my ding patterns 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuzzie Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Except for the ones taken from the same tree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubis Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 3 hours ago, rubis said: What is thermal and sonic treatment? Ah, thanks everyone, this is making sense to me now! I've noticed Fender, Warmoth, Musicman and others offering roasted bodies and necks, and I'm prepared to accept that hallowed names such as these wouldn't waste research time and money on snake oil. I also think I've read somewhere in the past that you could 'loosen up' the soundboard of an acoustic guitar and improve it's sound by placing it on top of a speaker and subjecting it to the vibrations, I suppose this is the same concept of quickly introducing the kind of vibrations it would naturally be subjected to over hours of playing The only thing which makes me slightly sceptical of these kind of claims though, is that manufacturers never seem to back up these claims with some sort of definitive A/B test of treated and non treated products, which would clearly show us the benefits, which seem subtle to my cloth ears, and that often all I can find is the testimonial of someone who has paid (a lot of money) for an instrument or part of one, and would, quite understandably, like to think it was worth the cost and an improvement on a stock item Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Contact Sandberg and ask them which university they've worked with. They use the 'Sandberg process' as part of their teaching. I can't recall which university it was Brunswick perhaps or maybe Hanover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuzzie Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 @rubis I think it will be very difficult to quantify such a variable as with hearing a note, or feeling how something plays it will be very subjective. Some people prefer new strings, some dead, some nickel, some steel etc. Knowing how wood behaves as an entity, it’s logical, is it night and day, probably not, but having played them across the range with various treatments I think it makes a difference, couldn’t afford one new, but would stump up the extra for a second hand one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuzzie Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 I think it’s Brunswick, and they are definitely looking at formal research into it, but sitting on the roasted fence it could be Hannover. Yammy use a temperature controlled chamber whilst doing it as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 (edited) We're in Tonewood Territory, and that's a rootn tootn place full of shootin from the hip: there's no AB, because it's all very subjective, I think the most telling phrase is '...someone who has paid (a lot of money)...and would, quite understandably, like to think it was worth the cost and an improvement on a stock item...' Marketing Departments live and die by this... Oh, and roasted maple, like a lot of tonewoods, looks lovely 😃 Edited September 23, 2018 by Muzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuzzie Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Aye Muzz, i’ll Agree there it’s Wild West Country, but this type of thing can work in your favour second hand. Happens all across the place, for example USA made doesn’t mean better than Mex or Jap in some instances within some companies, that falls into the same category Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 As a solution getting timber that is dry enough in quantities enough for mass production a heat treatment makes sense. Back in the 60s when all these classic vintage instruments were from the wood would be left to air dry naturally for a longer time. I remember when I started playing Warwick made a selling point of their big sheds of air drying Woods they kept for years - stopped using that in their marketing when they stepped up the volume with the nu-metal Warwick boom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Yup, a couple of the worst basses I've owned were real-deal 70s Fenders. I sold them for hefty chunks of cash (market value) that were several times what they were actually worth without the name, the age, the mojo, etc... The 78 Jazz, in particular...I hope whoever bought it just hung it up as a trophy*, because it wasn't much of an instrument... * And if they did, I hope they used long screws in the wall: it was 12lbs+.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Cuzzie said: Aye Muzz, i’ll Agree there it’s Wild West Country, but this type of thing can work in your favour second hand. Happens all across the place, for example USA made doesn’t mean better than Mex or Jap in some instances within some companies, that falls into the same category Paul McCartney would say..., Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuzzie Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 It’s all that moisture they held, could have done with a little heat shaking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reggaebass Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Muzz said: Yup, a couple of the worst basses I've owned were real-deal 70s Fenders. I sold them for hefty chunks of cash (market value) that were several times what they were actually worth without the name, the age, the mojo, etc... The 78 Jazz, in particular...I hope whoever bought it just hung it up as a trophy*, because it wasn't much of an instrument... * And if they did, I hope they used long screws in the wall: it was 12lbs+.... Was they really that bad , in what way only asking as I was half looking at investing in one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 The 70s (especially the late 70s) are a very mixed bag when it comes to Fenders - there's lots of reasons for this, mostly around the CBS buyout, I'm sure there are many nice ones out there, but these two were basses I bought unseen (well, unplayed), and in those circumstances you take the risk. And in these cases they weren't good at all. Nothing disastrous like a twisted neck (tho it had a neck pocket gap you could have kept a spare pencil in), just an instrument which didn't feel or play as well as something which cost a fraction of what it did. Investing, however, is another thing entirely - I'm sure the 78 Jazz has doubled in price in the few years since I bought it, as it ticked all the investment/collector boxes, like original case, nearly unmarked, etc. It was just as something you'd want to play, it left something to be desired. Which is possibly why it was unmarked in its case after 30-odd years... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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