Band issues, what would you do?

[bassbiscuits]

On 09/09/2018 at 10:50, discreet said:

If you rely on bass playing for a living, then it's just another potential income stream along with all the others you no doubt have running, so it's OK.

Otherwise I'd blow it out. I like to feel part of a cohesive unit and that my contribution isn't expendable or negotiable. That situation would be just way too tenuous for me. YMMV.

I was the replacement bass player, and therefore the last member to join, one of my previous bands. They were halfway thru an album at the time, and I was really looking forward to recording some stuff. I played and sang on about three of the songs I think, and was eagerly waiting for the next stint in the studio to do the rest.

I found out subsequently that the guitarist had decided to just play the bass on all the rest of the tunes and went and completed them without telling me, after booking the recording session when he knew I was on holiday.

In fairness, I did leave that band - not as an immediate result of that, but it did give me a fairly good indication of where I stood.

[discreet]

11 minutes ago, bassbiscuits said:

In fairness, I did leave that band - not as an immediate result of that, but it did give me a fairly good indication of where I stood.

That situation would certainly have raised the temperature of my urine to over 100 degrees Celsius.

It's astounding to me how little some 'musicians' value the input of a good bass player (and drummer). They just DON'T get it!  

[bassbiscuits]

5 minutes ago, discreet said:

That situation would certainly have raised the temperature of my urine to over 100 degrees Celsius.

It's astounding to me how little some 'musicians' value the input of a good bass player (and drummer). They just DON'T get it!  

I don't think it was my bass playing itself in question - more his attitude overall to stamping his authority on his band by making sure I knew my worth. Idiot really.

[discreet]

1 minute ago, bassbiscuits said:

I don't think it was my bass playing itself in question - more his attitude overall to stamping his authority on his band by making sure I knew my worth. Idiot really.

It's his loss. What a masturbator. 

[bassbiscuits]

3 minutes ago, discreet said:

It's his loss. What a masturbator. 

Quite.

[martthebass]

I always feel sad at the number of pompous tosspots who elect themselves to a 'position of authority' in a band.  Why all the seriousness when for the majority of us it's all about the enjoyment, not a career?

[discreet]

5 minutes ago, martthebass said:

I always feel sad at the number of pompous tosspots who elect themselves to a 'position of authority' in a band.  Why all the seriousness when for the majority of us it's all about the enjoyment, not a career?

Exactly. I'm all for not wasting time and having a pro attitude (even if it's not a pro band), but there's no need to be a total dıck about it. These people always contradict themselves at some point so can quite easily be deflated. But it's never ideal. The bottom line is, being in a band should be fun.

[Marc S]

Sorry to have been even later to the party than Discreet and Happy Jack

I agree with most of what has already been said above. To me, the issue is whether it was made clear to you at the outset, that they would be doing gigs without bass - for whatever reason (fee, venue size etc). You would probably have been happier if they had made that absolutely clear, and I can understand what you feel you have been "slightly deceived". This may, or may not have been deliberate. I think it's foolish if it's deliberate, and inconsiderate if not.

At your informal audition, were you absolutely clear about the other bands / commitments you were involved in? I'm just thinking ahead here, in case they bring up the argument; "well, you're involved in other projects, so why not us?"
I think if you feel that you've been sold short, or that you're under-valued, then you have to ask yourself whether you're going to be comfortable continuing in this band. If they're decent types, a frank discussion might help clear the air. I'd far sooner have that frank discussion, than be stewing about deception and my own worth to these guys. I've had all that sort of cr@p in the past, and these days I'm too long in the tooth to put up with any nonsense

As with Happy Jack - I'm doing this bass playing malarkey for fun, and if you're happy continuing with these guys (once the air is clear, and once you're settled on your position) and if it keeps bringing in some gigs and cash - then stay. If however, you find they're not being completely honest + upfront with you, or that they're likely to sell you short in future - then maybe stick with them until you've found something else / better, and let your feet do the talking... when it suits you to do so.....

Whatever happens, let us know how you get on, and best of luck with it

Edited September 10, 2018 by Marc S

[Monkey Steve]

From the OP's description, my reading of it is more miscommunication than a despicable plot to undermine you:  you thought you were joining a band; they thought they were getting a bass player who was happy to help them out when needed.  Although...

I suggest that it's worth having a clear the air discussion for a couple of reasons.  First, it's just not polite to be kept out of the loop of where "the band" is playing, and as a minimum they should at least be telling you of the gigs they are taking on where your services are not needed.  Clearly that's a big driver in why you're not very happy at the moment.  And if they are choosing when to play as a duo and when to play as a band based on maximising what the two of them get paid rather than the needs of the venue/promoter, then it's an issue.

Second, it does make we wonder if they see you as part of "the band" at all.  It smells very much like you are the hired hand, and if the band ever takes off and there is serious money at stake then you'll find yourself excluded from any participation in the band's profits.  There's a long and dishonourable tradition of band members finding out that technically they aren't actually band members after all when there's money to be made.  Perhaps there's a fundamental question at the heart of this, that if you're only ever going to be the hired hand then you should be getting paid now, not pitching in and doing festivals for nothing to help promote a band that doesn't think they'll need to share the money when it starts coming in. 

I'm not saying any of it is specifically wrong, more that the band needs to make it very clear what your position is, and then you can make an informed decision of whether you want to continue.

[Marc S]

+1 to Monkey Steve's comments above

[Happy Jack]

5 minutes ago, Monkey Steve said:

It smells very much like you are the hired hand, and if the band ever takes off and there is serious money at stake then you'll find yourself excluded from any participation in the band's profits. 

Meanwhile, back in the real world ...

[Monkey Steve]

2 hours ago, bassbiscuits said:

I don't think it was my bass playing itself in question - more his attitude overall to stamping his authority on his band by making sure I knew my worth. Idiot really.

Been there, done that.  In my case a second guitarist who also played keys, who at every practice would make a point of reminding everybody that he could play lower than my four string and that I wouldn't be missed if i couldn't make a rehearsal (and by implication, if i couldn't make a gig). It was his ham fisted attempt to devalue my contribution to the band, because he could see that since i had joined (I was the last one in) the balance of power had completely shifted away from him.

He never forgave me when we sacked him - apparently it was all my fault and the rest of the band had nothing to do with it.  Never seen him since.  Not bothered.

[Monkey Steve]

2 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Meanwhile, back in the real world ...

well, yes...it is perhaps fanciful to expect there to be any actual money, but on the off chance that some actually appears...

[discreet]

2 minutes ago, Monkey Steve said:

...a second guitarist who also played keys, who at every practice would make a point of reminding everybody that he could play lower than my four string and that I wouldn't be missed if I couldn't make a rehearsal (and by implication, if I couldn't make a gig). It was his ham fisted attempt to devalue my contribution to the band, because he could see that since I had joined the balance of power had completely shifted away from him.

He never forgave me when we sacked him - apparently it was all my fault and the rest of the band had nothing to do with it.

That must have been SUH-WEET! Nice work.

Edited September 10, 2018 by discreet

[discreet]

5 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Meanwhile, back in the real world ...

It does happen, Jack. Not very often admittedly, but it does happen.

[Happy Jack]

4 minutes ago, Monkey Steve said:

... would make a point of reminding everybody that he could play lower than my four string and that I wouldn't be missed ...

Amazing what you can achieve with an Octaver and the right attitude. 

[Monkey Steve]

1 minute ago, discreet said:

That must have been SUH-WEET! Nice work.

well, yes and no.  We were all very glad to see him go, and it wasn't actually my idea, it was the BL's wife who pushed him into doing it when an opportunity arose.  So I was pleased to fully endorse that decision (and the rest of us had been complaining about him behind his back for months, waiting for the BL to agree to do something.  But he hadn't seen it coming at all, and actually sacking him was like kicking a puppy in the face, him thinking that we're discussing how we take the band forward and not realising that we're telling him that the future has more space on stage right about where he always stands:

Us: so, we don't think we need two guitars any more

Him:  Great, so I'll only be playing guitar on the old stuff, and I'll be playing keyboards on the new stuff?

Us:  Er, no, we don't really want any keyboards either

Him: so, what?  I just play guitar and keyboards on the old stuff? Do you just want me to play lead guitar on the new stuff, or just play the rhythm guitar when the BL is playing the solos?

Us:  errr, no, not really...

Not a conversation I ever want to repeat

[Grangur]

On 08/09/2018 at 17:34, Len_derby said:

My take on it is that if those two have played for a while as a duo you'll probably always be a marginal semi/detached member of the band. I was in a similar situation when I joined a band run by a husband and wife duo. You just need to decide if you're happy with that.

Think about Darryl Jones. Played with the Stones for 22 years and not considered a proper Stone...

 

The Stones are well experienced at this. Ian Stewart was the original keys player with the Stones. He was a founding member but was told "Stewart, you've got a good face for radio, so we won't be wanting you on stage. But you're still a Rollin' Stone, you're still in the band".  He never got the payments the others got and was,  I believe, missed out on credits. 

Mick, Brian, and Keef lived together in a house and were the "in-crowd". Bill and Charlie were family men and never were on the same footing as the others in the band either. Today Ronny has taken Brian's roll in the centre. Charlie is still an outsider. But I guess this happens a  lot. I've seen it in bands too. Watch John "Rhino" Edwards on stage with Status Quo, and you can see he's still 2nd division.

[discreet]

25 minutes ago, Monkey Steve said:

Not a conversation I ever want to repeat.

I can understand that. But still... suh-weet!! 

[jazzmanb]

As you say they could have handled it better but the fact is a lot of the time you can get by without Bass.You're spreading yourself out across bands so its a two way street.If the work isn't enough put it down to experience and move on

[Stylon Pilson]

3 minutes ago, jazzmanb said:

As you say they could have handled it better but the fact is a lot of the time you can get by without Bass.You're spreading yourself out across bands so its a two way street.If the work isn't enough put it down to experience and move on

Well if that post isn't a bannable offence, I don't know what is.

S.P.

[yorks5stringer]

1 hour ago, Grangur said:

 

The Stones are well experienced at this. Ian Stewart was the original keys player with the Stones. He was a founding member but was told "Stewart, you've got a good face for radio, so we won't be wanting you on stage. But you're still a Rollin' Stone, you're still in the band".  He never got the payments the others got and was,  I believe, missed out on credits. 

Mick, Brian, and Keef lived together in a house and were the "in-crowd". Bill and Charlie were family men and never were on the same footing as the others in the band either. Today Ronny has taken Brian's roll in the centre. Charlie is still an outsider. But I guess this happens a  lot. I've seen it in bands too. Watch John "Rhino" Edwards on stage with Status Quo, and you can see he's still 2nd division.

Could you elaborate for me  please on this statement? How does he look '2nd division'?😕

[EliasMooseblaster]

1 hour ago, Grangur said:

But I guess this happens a  lot. I've seen it in bands too. Watch John "Rhino" Edwards on stage with Status Quo, and you can see he's still 2nd division.

I've heard that Alex Lifeson and Geddy Lee still openly joke about Neil Peart being "the new kid," though I gather it's a lot more good-natured than it is in some groups.

[yorks5stringer]

7 minutes ago, jazzmanb said:

As you say they could have handled it better but the fact is a lot of the time you can get by without Bass.You're spreading yourself out across bands so its a two way street.If the work isn't enough put it down to experience and move on

As I've said a couple of times(?), it's the fact that they knowingly gigged without telling me. If they'd said 'we've got a few festival gigs over August where the promoter only wants a 2/3/4 piece/ it's not financially viable to do it as a 5 piece and you were last to join/ or we're not happy with you' then at least it would have been better than finding out via FB update on Monday morning when I see a picture of all the band (bar me) photographed grinning on a Festival Stage....🤩

FWIW I have responded to their original response( we always intended to gig with different line-ups) asking for more transparency in future and saying how disappointed I feel with the situation.

What seemed a long term project with them now appears to be something  quite different. It will be interesting to see how many more gigs come my way from these guys.....

[NewDad]

When queried, the band admitted they play in various lineups, so it's clear you are considered - at this point - a call-when-needed augmentation, not a member. If you're happy to play with them on this basis, then carry on - but remain cool and detached. If you insist they copy you in on their every fart and burp then they'll likely find you too pushy and possessive and look elsewhere.

Circumstances may change in your favour, so try to be objective. The "I saw a program that said concealment is lying" blame-foisting moral judgement approach is compost for resentment and unhealthy for all concerned. The Universal Standard of Fair Treatment and Best Practice for Bands and Musicians is written in invisible ink on the backside of a unicorn. Take as you find and roll with the punches.