leftybassman392 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 1 hour ago, stingrayPete1977 said: Is there a limit to the Internet where we must conserve threads by only commenting on or creating constructive topics? Not at all Pete. This is a forum for expressing opinions though, and thankfully an OP on this forum can't prevent people from doing so. Rubbishing dissenting views as a way of stifling debate (which is what this particular OP appears to be trying to do - or if not then what?) just ain't gonna work. He doesn't rate this type of musical endeavour; he made that very clear upfront. Does he really just want to hear contributions from posters who rock up and agree with him and browbeat everybody else into giving up and walking away? He's entitled to his view of course, and entitled to keep expressing it as often as he likes; but then so is everybody else. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 It's got people talking about it, no such thing as bad publicity and all that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) Here's a little something to get you talking: Stockhausen This is one of his shorter pieces. ... and if you liked that you're gonna just love this. There's plenty more where these came from. Edited July 21, 2018 by leftybassman392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 I didn't mind it, I wouldn't want the album for Christmas, but at least it's dramatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 45 minutes ago, leftybassman392 said: Here's a little something to get you talking: Stockhausen This is one of his shorter pieces. ... and if you liked that you're gonna just love this. There's plenty more where these came from. Not really a fair comparison; those are pieces of music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Blank Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Music... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earbrass Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 8 hours ago, Leonard Smalls said: Funnily enough I discovered the weirder end of jazz completely by mistake; I was DJing in Leeds in the 80s - mainly funk. And as there was no real means I knew of finding new music I'd buy stuff completely on spec. One day I saw an album cover with a sharp dressed black guy holding a Steinberger bass - it was an import costing £8.99 (this was 1985!!!) but I thought this looks like new funk, I'll play it at the Warehouse tonight! It was Jamaaladeen Tacuma's "Showstopper". I played it before sticking it on the dancefloor - didn't sound straight 4:4, there was weird repetition, there were too many notes, it just wasn't right. So I shoved it in the back of my record collection. A couple of years later I listened to it again, and somehow it just made sense... But it was a slippery slope, I craved more oddness, more dissonance, more crazy. Ornette and his harmolodics weren't enough. Through Shannon-Jackson I discovered Last Exit, Brotzmann, Bill Laswell, Sonny Sharrock, Steve Lacey, Lol Coxhill and the holy grail - Derek Bailey. It was like starting with a fag behind the bike sheds, graduating onto a sneaky spliff, onto white powders, bits of blotting paper, and finally, Free Jazz Improv. All other music sounded dull. After a long visit to the Betty Ford Clinic I was weaned back onto "normal" music, but thanks to this thread I'm hooked again. Cheers! My "gateway drug" was Henry Cow. Discovered them when I was about 15, back in the seventies, and was totally blown away, although, to be honest, I enjoyed their written pieces more than the totally free-improv sections. Here is the last 7 or so minutes of the live version of Beautiful As The Moon; Terrible As An Army With Banners - the fabulous reprise of the main theme starts around 4 minutes in, after a version of Robert Wyatt's "Gloria Gloom" Here's their version of Robert Wyatt's "Little Red Riding Hood Hits the Road", with Wyatt on vocals. Some sublime bass lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 6 hours ago, leftybassman392 said: Not at all Pete. This is a forum for expressing opinions though, and thankfully an OP on this forum can't prevent people from doing so. Rubbishing dissenting views as a way of stifling debate (which is what this particular OP appears to be trying to do - or if not then what?) just ain't gonna work. He doesn't rate this type of musical endeavour; he made that very clear upfront. Does he really just want to hear contributions from posters who rock up and agree with him and browbeat everybody else into giving up and walking away? He's entitled to his view of course, and entitled to keep expressing it as often as he likes; but then so is everybody else. It was deliberately emotive to stir up some passion. Go on - Tell me why I should give this stuff a listen and try to understand it. If I just wrote, I don't get it, that's boring and the thread will have no passion. If I write "I judge you", we get the creative juices flowing and the discussion is immediately more emotive and interesting. If the video stirs up emotion for some, why can't I do the same with my choice of words? Art can stir up all sorts of feelings deep inside, whether it's words or music or whatever is contained in that video in the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 5 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said: I didn't mind it, I wouldn't want the album for Christmas, but at least it's dramatic. I can't imagine it'll be appearing on any Now album anytime soon either? "now that's what I call animal sounds dressed up as free form jazz" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, EBS_freak said: It was deliberately emotive to stir up some passion. Fair enough, but there are responses available on numerous levels. I could respond in kind by saying something like 'if you don't get it then perhaps you might like to try a bit harder'; or perhaps something a bit more formal whilst retaining the emotive edge - how about 'free improv has been around a long time and has links with numerous other musical genres, not to mention it's own big names (I referenced Stockhausen earlier but there's plenty of others such as Evan Parker, Terry Riley, David Bailey and David Bedford), and doesn't need to justify itself to you or anyone else. If you don't get it, don't listen to it.'? In a calmer and more collaborative vein, I might suggest you dig around a bit. A bunch of names and pieces have been suggested to you. I could even provide some background reading for what it might be worth. Try to get some sort of handle on what motivates people (other than insanity) to play this music. There is, however, a bottom line here that is there no matter how we go about this: free improv is a well-established element of the musical firmament. You can either get involved in some way or not. Up to you really. Feel free to judge accordingly; I'll do my best to live with the consequences. Edited July 22, 2018 by leftybassman392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 13 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said: There's loads of terrible music some people enjoy Coldplay, Dylan and Cohen spring to mind immediately. The Smiths? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 7 hours ago, Earbrass said: My "gateway drug" was Henry Cow. I'd never really tried Henry and His Cow... Having dived in a bit seems like the sort of thing I'd really like bits of, and really hate other bits of. I think they're very like Magma - though I think I prefer the Frenchies! It's all a bit drones and repetition though I find the fireworks bits of Magma more exciting - though they're very far from improvised, in fact probably prog! 11 hours ago, Dad3353 said: Not really a fair comparison; those are pieces of music. You sound like my dad! 😉 But getting into this type of odd music is basically a question of finding something that speaks to you a bit, then you're no longer quite so resistant to the next lot of weirdness, then it's a slippery slope to Zorn's Noisecore... Bit like becoming immune to violence through watching video nasties! Here's my favourite bit of free improve, featuring Jamaaladeen Tacuma on bass, Calvin Weston on drums (i.e. Prime Time's rhythm section) with Derek Bailey freaking out on guitar: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 You see, I can get with Magma, although they could work on their lyrics. 25:37 of the second, we are back into shred videos. I'm just imagining listening to this in my car with my window down and pulling up next to somebody at the lights... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 1 hour ago, leftybassman392 said: Fair enough, but there are responses available on numerous levels. I could respond in kind by saying something like 'if you don't get it then perhaps you might like to try a bit harder'; or perhaps something a bit more formal whilst retaining the emotive edge - how about 'free improv has been around a long time and has links with numerous other musical genres, not to mention it's own big names (I referenced Stockhausen earlier but there's plenty of others such as Evan Parker, Terry Riley, David Bailey and David Bedford), and doesn't need to justify itself to you or anyone else. If you don't get it, don't listen to it.'? In a calmer and more collaborative vein, I might suggest you dig around a bit. A bunch of names and pieces have been suggested to you. I could even provide some background reading for what it might be worth. Try to get some sort of handle on what motivates people (other than insanity) to play this music. There is, however, a bottom line here that is there no matter how we go about this: free improv is a well-established element of the musical firmament. You can either get involved in some way or not. Up to you really. Feel free to judge accordingly; I'll do my best to live with the consequences. I don't know what's harder - trying to get it, or trying to listen to it in the first place! There's certainly enough of this stuff around... and as of yet, I can't quite figure out why - and why in fact, it appears to have an audience. Background reading - whilst I'm open to the idea of reading about it - seems an odd prerequisite in order to get this music also. I thought music was a universal language. Maybe not. But as alluded to, I don't get the Smiths either. So maybe thing aren't as straight forward as you'd think. OK, before judging you, my question is this. If I came around you house for a BBQ and you went to put some music on... would you ever consider putting this sort of stuff on? What sort of environment would you typical listen to this stuff in? I could kind of get it if it was a meditative thing... you know, lying in bed, sleeping mask on, headphones and chilling out in a zen like fashion... but I think a lot of stuff in this thread would make me want to go on a killing spree. And I include the Smiths in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, EBS_freak said: I'm just imagining listening to this in my car with my window down and pulling up next to somebody at the lights... You're getting it - as the Chillis said many years ago: "Funk 'em, just to see the look on their face, funk 'em just to see the look on their face"! Just one more puff and you'll soon be in my grasp... Have some Fuze - only partly improvised and relatively sane but an easy way into microtonal stuff and weird keys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said: Here's my favourite bit of free improve, featuring Jamaaladeen Tacuma on bass, Calvin Weston on drums (i.e. Prime Time's rhythm section) with Derek Bailey freaking out on guitar: I gave it three minutes, fifteen seconds. No, I junked tapes like that the day after having made 'em, with buddies, back in those heady 'squat' days (or was it weeks, or years..? I can't remember ...). It could just as well have been (and wouldn't surprise me to learn...) a sea-lion on guitar, the bassist is plugging away looking for that all-elusive super-lydocrean scale he'd heard on a John Peel show, and the drummer is stoically trying to pile his kit into a telephone booth, but they keep rolling out. Maybe it all comes together after an hour or so; if the tapes we made at the time are any guide, I'd say that's unlikely. No, I have no qualms whatever with this stuff being listened to, admired, imitated, praised, glorified or paid for by others; that's their prerogative, and I have no judgement to pass (even if I was qualified to do so, which I am definitely not...). As long as I'm not obliged to suffer such stuff, it's no skin off my nose, and good luck to 'em. I have a similar approach to other stuff, such as Spice Girls, or Tiny Tim, and more yet, so it's not an exclusive ignorance of the genre, it's just that I don't want to listen to it any longer than I have to. In daze of yore, I assisted at concerts by Soft Machine, Matching Mole and more, and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Maybe, I'm getting old, like your Dad..? Hmm; we'd perhaps get along just fine... Magma, on the other hand, are serious heroes of mine, and are as impressive today as they were in the '70s. That is Good Stuff, in my opinion. Not to everyone's taste, of course, but I still attend their events if within travelling distance, and always leave elated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said: You're getting it - as the Chillis said many years ago: "Funk 'em, just to see the look on their face, funk 'em just to see the look on their face"! Just one more puff and you'll soon be in my grasp... Have some Fuze - only partly improvised and relatively sane but an easy way into microtonal stuff and weird keys. Just watching this now. I'm getting Jojo's contribution. The rest is still mostly nonsense to me. I think guitarists are largely the people that grate on my senses. But as a bass player, thats to be expected... right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Dad3353 said: I have a similar approach to other stuff, such as Spice Girls What...?! 😛 Funnily enough, if you check - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_recorded_by_the_Spice_Girls - you'll find they are quite the songwriters apparently - although I'm not entirely sure if they aren't just squatting on songwriting credits. If so, Halliwell needed to up her game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Mostly? Not all? It's slowly seeping in... Soon you'll be humming this on the toilet! As Zappa said - "Does humour belong in music?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said: Have some Fuze - only partly improvised and relatively sane but an easy way into microtonal stuff and weird keys. Well, it would be, if they were any good..! Shakti meets the Doors, featuring Syd Barrett and a student of Terry Bozio. As with any experiment, by definition one has to admit the possibility of failure. There are glimpses of hope for these young men, but they still have a way to go before achieving what they appear to be striving for. Nice effort; come back when you've sorted out the glitches, please. You're right in one respect, though; at least, while typing this, I let it run right through to the smattering of applause. Will I play it again..? Unlikely. Edited July 22, 2018 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said: Mostly? Not all? It's slowly seeping in... Soon you'll be humming this on the toilet! As Zappa said - "Does humour belong in music?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said: As Zappa said - "Does humour belong in music?" Quite; they're obviously 'aving a laff, and enjoying the joke. Ho ho. ... Next ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Dad3353 said: Quite; they're obviously 'aving a laff, and enjoying the joke. Ho ho. ... Next ... Did I miss the joke? I'll give it a second listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 12 minutes ago, EBS_freak said: What...?! 😛 Funnily enough, if you check - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_recorded_by_the_Spice_Girls - you'll find they are quite the songwriters apparently - although I'm not entirely sure if they aren't just squatting on songwriting credits. If so, Halliwell needed to up her game. As I wrote above, that's fine, whatever, as long as I don't have to listen to it. Good luck to 'em, but I'll not be contributing to their 'success'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 1 minute ago, EBS_freak said: Did I miss the joke? I'll give it a second listen. Be careful, now; you've been warned. It's a slippery slope, and you've soap on your soles... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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