3 Bolt Necks vs. The Rest of The World

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

So, there’s a few basses I’ve GASSED over recently that I’ve justified swerving away from them on the basis that they have 3 bolt necks.

I’m no expert, and no disrespect to anyone that owns one, but if you had a choice of building a new bass with either 3 or 4 bolts securing the neck, why wouldn’t you go with 4? My head says that 4 must be more stable right? Especially if you have to shim it? I accept I may be wrong, as I know sod all about making the buggers, but it just seems odd to me.

Granted, back in the day, maybe the idea seemed sound, but they are still being made today. I give you an example....Atelier Z Jerry Barnes Signature. Wonderful guy, fantastic player, but 3 bolts for the four string and the five string has 4 bolts. So, if the justification for the extra bolt on the five for marginal extra heel width is stability, why not have four bolts on the four string as well?

It strikes me that the 3 bolt on the four string has been done for purely ‘vintage aesthetics’, which if so, it just complete tosh.

I’m more than happy to be shouted down in this. It might cost me a few quid, but hey, I get a NBD or three. 

Discuss.

 

[Graham]

I believe there's nothing intrinsicly wrong with a 3 bolt neck, but there'a a perceived issue due to 70's Fenders having a three bolt system and neck issues. However, if I'm recalling correctly that issue was actually down to Fender not maintaining their jigs so the worn tooling lead to mis-aligned neck joints.

I doubt Atelier would have that issue, particularly as they're Japanese.

Edit:

Just remembered, that all said, I have a mid-90s G&L with a three bolt/micro-tilt neck joint. When I got it I took it to my local guitar shop for a set-up as it was in poor condition and they removed the neck and re-attached it as it was out of alignment. BUT, it was a 17 year old instrument that hadn't been looked after especially well and is now fine four years later.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Graham

[BigRedX]

There's nothing theoretically wrong with the 3-bolt system. Unfortunately when Fender introduced it back in the 70s, their engineering tolerances and quality control wasn't up to the job.

It's not just the oversized neck pockets that were the problem. The micro-tilt mechanism uses a screw which pushes against a metal plate set into the underside of the neck. If this plate is not set completely level with the base of the neck, the action of the screw against it will not only move the neck up and down, but also, depending on the angle of the plate, sideways as well. With a proper snug-fitting neck pocket it wouldn't be possible for the neck to move sideways, but of course Fender neck joints from the late 70s were anything but snug. Hence the infamous mis-aligned necks of 70s Fenders with the 3-bolt micro-tilt system. 

These days the engineering tolerances of CNC machined neck pockets are sufficiently tight for no sideways movement to be possible, so even if the micro-tilt mechanism hasn't been installed properly, the only direction the neck can move is up and down.

[gary mac]

Agree with Graham and Big Red, if the pocket is cut correctly then there are no problems with three bolt fixings.

I have an old eighties G&L SB1 with the three bolt fixing and neck tilt, there are no stability issues at all.

[Christine]

The only real problem with bolt on or more accurately screw on necks regardless of how many screws it has is removing them and putting them back on again. I don't care what anyone says it will always stretch the wood fibres where the screw bites some more every time. The Fender 3 point does seem a little odd in that there is a single screw at the back which is the one that gets the most tension put on it by the pull of the strings. Real world though as long as the wood in the neck screw holes is still sound you should have no problem with 3 or 4

[Woodinblack]

I have no idea whether 3 or 4 is ideal, although I can't see why 3 would be a problem. I just like the asthetic of more, which is why I put 5 in my fireman (6 wouldn't fit nicely). In fact I do wonder if more can make it weaker, when you get to the number in a ritter for instance

[chris_b]

For instance, if a bolt cost 1 cent you only have to make 100 3 bolt instruments and you've saved a dollar. Fender were making tens of thousands of instruments. That's a fat profit if you can pull it off. Unfortunately they didn't take enough care to make the design a success.

If your QC is good enough you can make 2 or even 1 bolt work. By the law of averages, there must be some good 3 bolt Fender basses out there but you might have a long search to find them.

[Delberthot]

2 hours ago, Christine said:

 The Fender 3 point does seem a little odd in that there is a single screw at the back which is the one that gets the most tension put on it by the pull of the strings. 

Would it not be the two bolts nearest the headstock that take most of the tension?

Personally I would prefer the 5 of my Sterling or 6 on a Stingray but the Stingray began life with 3 bolts then 4 and onto the 6 that we have now.

I've just got myself a MIJ '75 Jazz and it has the 3 bolt neck but I'd take an educated guess that it was better made than most, if not all, of the 3 bolt US Jazzes on the 70s so I'm not concerned

[zitherman]

Ive owned a 3 bolt jazz since 1976 and its never been the slightest problem.

[fleabag]

My ESP LTD fretless must be some kind of freak, with it's 6 bolt neck.  Seems pretty stable though 

[SpondonBassed]

If the neck pocket and neck root are a close fit, it should not be a problem.  If they are not, you might need more fasteners.  The neck plate helps spread the load imparted by the three bolts.  At the thread end of the bolts however you might find that a couple of neck removal/installation jobs leave the female threads weakened.  If the job has been done with care that wouldn't normally be a problem either.

I'm with you though.  It never inspires me with confidence to see cars with three studs per wheel even with the knowledge that it's perfectly good engineering.

[BigRedX]

7 hours ago, chris_b said:

For instance, if a bolt cost 1 cent you only have to make 100 3 bolt instruments and you've saved a dollar. Fender were making tens of thousands of instruments. That's a fat profit if you can pull it off. Unfortunately they didn't take enough care to make the design a success.

However in Fender's case the extra expense of the engineering and fitting of the micro-tilt adjustment system cost a lot more than they saved on losing a single bolt. 

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

All read with interest. I had actually forgotten about the micro-tilt thing.

If three bolts are perfectly adequate, does this make the likes of Yamaha's Billy Sheehan bass (which has bolts angled into the neck to draw it into the body) and the arrangement of bolts on my Ritter, somewhat unnecessary?

[Christine]

7 hours ago, Delberthot said:

Would it not be the two bolts nearest the headstock that take most of the tension?

 

Yes sorry your quite right, I'm more of a set or through neck person LOL

[SpondonBassed]

6 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

If three bolts are perfectly adequate, does this make the likes of Yamaha's Billy Sheehan bass (which has bolts angled into the neck to draw it into the body) and the arrangement of bolts on my Ritter, somewhat unnecessary?

Not if you consider the hammer that Billy subjects his instrument to.

More fasteners of a smaller diameter will compress the neck/body interface much the same except that the load is more evenly distributed.  I don't know why he wants it like that but I'd guess it is for durability.  It's a case of the right horse for the right job.  The way we tend to see electric bass played these days is a bit different to how it was back then.

[Norris]

Isn't the neck of Brian May's Red Special held on with one bolt?

[SpondonBassed]

1 hour ago, Norris said:

Isn't the neck of Brian May's Red Special held on with one bolt?

If this is to be believed, yes.

"The neck joins the body via a paddle-like heel extension which slots into a rectangular cut-out in the body, stopping
just short of the bridge pickup. Although originally designed to be glued in, the snug neck/body join is also secured
by a single bolt visible on the back of the guitar. This bolt also acts an anchor for the truss-rod end which the Mays
bent into shape on the kitchen cooker."

[HazBeen]

12 hours ago, gary mac said:

Agree with Graham and Big Red, if the pocket is cut correctly then there are no problems with three bolt fixings.

I have an old eighties G&L SB1 with the three bolt fixing and neck tilt, there are no stability issues at all.

Plus 1, G&Ls never had the issue ..... it is about quality of work, not number of bolts..... although more bolts mean you can be less accurate and still have a stable connection.

[BigRedX]

The best way to get a bolt-on neck snug in the pocket is, with the strings off to undo the neck bolts very slightly (no more than half a turn each) so there is the smallest amount of play in the neck joint. Then string up and tune to pitch. Once the tuning has stabilised tighten up the bolts all the way. The tension of the strings will have pulled the neck as far into the pocket as physically possible and then tightening up the bolts fixes it in place. There's no need to repeat this procedure when you restring, unless you have to take the neck off for some reason.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

18 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

The best way to get a bolt-on neck snug in the pocket is, with the strings off to undo the neck bolts very slightly (no more than half a turn each) so there is the smallest amount of play in the neck joint. Then string up and tune to pitch. Once the tuning has stabilised tighten up the bolts all the way. The tension of the strings will have pulled the neck as far into the pocket as physically possible and then tightening up the bolts fixes it in place. There's no need to repeat this procedure when you restring, unless you have to take the neck off for some reason.

Which is essentially what the Yamaha Billy Sheehan model does I guess.

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, HazBeen said:

Plus 1, G&Ls never had the issue ..... it is about quality of work, not number of bolts..... although more bolts mean you can be less accurate and still have a stable connection.

G&Ls have 6 bolts now!

[HazBeen]

Point being?

[Woodinblack]

13 minutes ago, HazBeen said:

Point being?

No point - just mentioning that G&L L series (and probably Ms) have 6 bolts, so it is probably more to do with image.

[HazBeen]

Both the L and M indeed have 6 bolts nowadays, but my old L was a stable as my new L so probably image indeed.

[Norris]

Three is the magic number - or at least that's what De La Soul would have you believe