la bam Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) Its a fair bet traditionally bass bins were at the bottom of the stack or pa because they weighed an absolute ton! No one was going to lift them 6 foot in the air! (or balance on top of the lighter thinner shorter cabs). We forget how lucky we are now with lightweight gear. When i first started it took 4 of us to lift our subs in and they were passive! Edited March 6, 2018 by la bam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoJoKe Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 23 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said: The comment about proper sub placement doesn't refer to compact arrays in particular, Read my comment about my Danley rig. You are not wrong, but neither are you right! there are a few other professionals here, so go start your own thread please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 1 hour ago, MoJoKe said: Yes, but you'd need a fairly small prick to do that!! Actually the drivers are pretty tough, and can be swapped with just 4 screws, but its a fair observation... I've played too many drunken weddings to know that the design is a bad idea. Would be good to feedback to the developers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said: It could do far worse than to emulate the efforts in consumer education that Barefaced has in the electric bass cab genre. But they haven't mastered tolex adhesive, handles that don't fall apart or feet that don't fall off? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 14 hours ago, MoJoKe said: Forgive me, that wasn't a telling off! Just that Bill made an incorrect comparison, and this thread is not about Bose , so not really relevant! Sorry, maybe I was a bit tetchy there. I really like the idea of this kind of system but was intrigued by Bill's post on a more general level too - given the design of most systems. I suspect the Mark system is beyond my budget (or need quite possibly) but the concept is very appealing. I have ben a fan of the HK systems but they are very heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 17 hours ago, MoJoKe said: That statement is frankly stupid, unhelpful and insulting to many people here. The correct answer is that most venues will not have their own sound system tuned to perfection for live music for that specific room, and they also won't allow you to treat their whole venue as an exercise in sonic perfection, as they have a business to run. So, you get the stage and a bit in front of it and have to do the best with what you have got, in the time you have to do it. I don't know that I have ever been given much more than 2 hours to set and soundcheck for anything smaller than a large theatre, and for most wedding gigs you get even less. So those of us here making a living as professional gigging musicians have to choose a sound reinforcement system to do the job best with consideration to a balance between weight, size, portability, convenience and the best quality you can afford. Many manufacturers, including Mark, Bose, RCF, et al. are investing millions to make this quality accessible. If you are an expert, and want to start a new and helpful thread being negative about compact line array, feel free, but please don't hijack this one! What's the matter with you? Whilst it's true that one may have little choice other than to stack tops above subs at each side of the stage due to constraints regarding room layout, time, etc, there's no need to spit the dummy. Bill is correct in that it isn't ideal and his post was moderate in tone. Try to debate issues in a grown up fashion, please. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoJoKe Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 13 hours ago, EBS_freak said: I've played too many drunken weddings to know that the design is a bad idea. Would be good to feedback to the developers! I do know what you mean... however they didn't ask my opinion either! Interestingly I used them for a rehearsal last night and looked more closely at this... the central black cone is fixed, so cannot move, so you'd need to poke around for a while to damage the speaker diaphragm... 3 hours ago, Steve Browning said: Sorry, maybe I was a bit tetchy there.... I suspect the Mark system is beyond my budget (or need quite possibly) but the concept is very appealing. I have ben a fan of the HK systems but they are very heavy. No worries! If you are a fan of HK, then you will be pleasantly pleased at the cost, and certainly the weight...! I didn't start this thread, so had no intention of doing a pitch here (unlike some!). While I am not employed by Markworld or MSL, their UK distributor, I do work part time with them, but not as a salesman! If anyone would like more info, please feel free to PM me... I am also happy to arrange other demonstrations if people are genuinely interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, MoJoKe said: I do know what you mean... however they didn't ask my opinion either! Interestingly I used them for a rehearsal last night and looked more closely at this... the central black cone is fixed, so cannot move, so you'd need to poke around for a while to damage the speaker diaphragm... I was tempted to investigate this further at the show but didn't think people would appreciate me putting my fingers into speaker cones. The thing is, the fact they are open is an invitation for poking around... something in my opinion that shouldn't be there in the first place. Things like this always draw my attention... mostly due to the fact that some numpty threw a plectrum into a horn on a monitor I had. You can imagine what that did to the sound (made it unusable for the rest of the gig) - and the work required to remedy the situation was far from trivial. It would be easier for the manufactures just to mesh it off so that such things can't happen. In the case of the MA system - I'm not sure what the design rationale behind the semi exposed speakers is but I'm surprised that it got to market like that. The fact that these things are going to be widely used in venues where there are going to be a lot of drunk w*nkers around does worry me - as I suspect that this is the market that Mark Audio have squarely targeted these systems at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 16 minutes ago, MoJoKe said: I didn't start this thread, so had no intention of doing a pitch here (unlike some!). While I am not employed by Markworld or MSL, their UK distributor, I do work part time with them, but not as a salesman! If anyone would like more info, please feel free to PM me... I am also happy to arrange other demonstrations if people are genuinely interested. That explains why you gave Bill M grief. You have "no intention of doing a pitch" but you work in the trade and can arrange demos... I don't work in the trade; I'm just a player who spent his hard earned on a Fohhn system because I found it best on audition/comparison. So I'm not "doing a pitch", either, but I feel qualified to advise others based on my experience. If anyone is interested in this kind of PA (mid priced sub plus small arrays), I'd suggest you investigate brands such as Fohhn, HK Elements, K Array, LD systems, and FBT as well as Markaudio. At the more budget end, try JBL Eon, RCF Evox, Bose (not really a true array, because the drivers are angled differently). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoJoKe Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Dan Dare said: If anyone is interested in this kind of PA (mid priced sub plus small arrays), I'd suggest you investigate brands such as Fohhn, HK Elements, K Array, LD systems, and FBT as well as Markaudio. At the more budget end, try JBL Eon, RCF Evox, Bose (not really a true array, because the drivers are angled differently). I couldn't agree more! I have been a pro bass player for over 40 years, and run a wet hire PA for the last three years. All PA is far too heavy, and the market needs development and diversity. I too have arrived at the gear I use through years of experimenting and investment. Nobody has ever given me anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Have to say though - what I saw at the show was well built, looked great and sounded great too. It certainly got me interested enough to walk over and have a good old nosey around it and look at the website whilst I was back at the hotel having a post show soak in the bath. I don't know what the prices for these systems are at the moment though - so not entirely sure what end of the market they are sitting in and who their competitors are. Could make for a good portable solution for somebody so as mentioned above, probably a good one to add to the list as one to check out. MA have done a great job on making their system stand out too. The owl eyes certainly made me know immediately who was behind it although the liking of the "owl eyes" could be subjective. Have you managed to get it out into the wide open and got it anywhere in the dealers yet @MoJoKe? - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Dan Dare said: Bose (not really a true array, because the drivers are angled differently). The angling of the drivers doesn't make it 'not... a true array'. It's actually an old concept, intended to broaden high frequency dispersion that otherwise beams due to using HF drivers that are too large. It's not as effective as using a two-way line, with midbass drivers large enough to comfortably reach 100Hz or lower, and tweeters to prevent high frequency beaming. Bose used that configuration as a cost cutting measure, allowing use of the same drivers they employ in many of their home audio speakers. Bose double cubes allow aiming of the drivers in two directions for the same reason, to broaden HF dispersion beyond the limitations of the driver. The Bose array is for all intents and purposes a stack of those double cubes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 On 06/03/2018 at 15:25, Happy Jack said: ...a private demo at gig volumes on Thursday morning (8th March) in Maidenhead. These systems won't be for everybody, if only because of the price, but if there's a Basschatter or two with a genuine interest who'd like to come along and see what the fuss is about, please drop me a PM. Just getting back on topic before it's too late. PM Happy Jack if this private demo tomorrow interests you. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 7 hours ago, Dan Dare said: If anyone is interested in this kind of PA (mid priced sub plus small arrays), I'd suggest you investigate brands such as Fohhn, HK Elements, K Array, LD systems, and FBT as well as Markaudio. That was a helpful list. Not sure I'd have included LD in that company, and perhaps harsh on RCF to exclude the Evox, but there's certainly some interesting stuff there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubster Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Heard both systems at Jimenez in Chiclana, Spain. Very impressive but the ‘marmite’ look withe Mark signature yellow will really divide opinions. I was taken aback by the large number of small jack connectors. Like the fact that they are standard jacks but made it all look rather messy. The bigger system swept away the smaller one for tone but that could have been due to the source material and eq. The sales guy mentioned prices of €1200 and €1600 per side which seemed attractive. I find myself initially drawn to these mini column array thingies but then common sense intervenes and I go back to the flexibility and expandability of Yamaha dxr, qsc k12.2 et al. However, at first listen, the Markaudios are very compelling. They are entering a crowded marketplace so pricing is all important. Spain is a very price sensitive market so I shall keep my eye on sales. sorry, a very subjective and flimsy first encounter but our band would give them a good workout if the distributor needs to get them out there -the bars and chiringuitos we play are a perfect environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 23 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said: The angling of the drivers doesn't make it 'not... a true array'. It's actually an old concept, intended to broaden high frequency dispersion that otherwise beams due to using HF drivers that are too large. It's not as effective as using a two-way line, with midbass drivers large enough to comfortably reach 100Hz or lower, and tweeters to prevent high frequency beaming. Bose used that configuration as a cost cutting measure, allowing use of the same drivers they employ in many of their home audio speakers. Bose double cubes allow aiming of the drivers in two directions for the same reason, to broaden HF dispersion beyond the limitations of the driver. The Bose array is for all intents and purposes a stack of those double cubes. I am not a PA nut but I have used very little equipment as nasty sounding as that Bose system. I really do think the Markbass system must sound better than that. As an aside it feels a bit off for Bill to told to "go start another thread" by someone with a commercial relationship with the product being discussed. Seems a bit rude. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 37 minutes ago, LukeFRC said: As an aside it feels a bit off for Bill to told to "go start another thread" by someone with a commercial relationship with the product being discussed. Seems a bit rude. They both have commercial interests - so one person with a commercial interest in the area commenting on the product represented by another person with the same commercial interest, is a bit discourteous at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, EBS_freak said: They both have commercial interests - so one person with a commercial interest in the area commenting on the product represented by another person with the same commercial interest, is a bit discourteous at best. I do not manufacture or sell speakers, or represent in any way any entity that does. I'm an acoustical engineer, so any comments I may make come purely from an engineering standpoint. I don't have a dog in this fight, but that doesn't mean I can't point out if one or more of them have a decided limp. Edited March 8, 2018 by Bill Fitzmaurice 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazBeen Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, Dad3353 said: Just getting back on topic before it's too late. PM Happy Jack if this private demo tomorrow interests you. Thank you. THIS! We probably should close the thread on this note too. All in favour? Edited March 8, 2018 by HazBeen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said: I do not manufacture or sell speakers, or represent in any way any entity that does. I'm an acoustical engineer, so any comments I may make come purely from an engineering standpoint. I don't have a dog in this fight, but that doesn't mean I can't point out if one or more of them have a decided limp. No but you do sell speaker plans that people can use to have a DIY route to the end product - you do have income from this, therefore you do have an interest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, HazBeen said: THIS! We probably should close the thread on this note too. All in favour? I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 If the forum management thinks that what I do for a living renders me incapable of offering unbiased technical advice all they have to do is say so and I will have made my last post here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ped Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 You're all good here, folks - everyone has an opinion so as long as we all treat each other with respect and realise that not everyone has the same experience, what's the problem? 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 I fear I may be the guilty party here. The OP was about the offer of a demo of the Markaudio system and I jumped in enthusing about a similar (visually!!) system that seemed to great for its size and was intrigued by Bills rsponse. The concept of speaker placement is doubtless worthy of its own thread so sincere apologies if I lead things off at a slight tangent. Maybe a new thread on how to site a pa would be interesting, whether a single box or a system consisting of subs etc. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roceci Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 58 minutes ago, HazBeen said: THIS! We probably should close the thread on this note too. All in favour? No way! Some of us spectators are just cracking the popcorn out here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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