Effects with active basses

[Horrorhiker]

Sorry if this has been featured on here before, but Ive scoured what I can and get such conflicting information across loads of sites. 

Ive got my eye on a Schecter Model T session. I'm in love with the look of it, and although I would never usually buy a bass without trying it, the amount I like it, plus reviews and anecdotal comments make me think its worth the risk (with the option of a return). 

Anyway, the problem is that I almost exclusively use a Big Muff Bass at the moment. I like the sound of fuzz bass, my bands are happy with the sound, so I don't really want to mess about with the formula too much. 

The Model T is active only, and I didnt realise there was a problem with active/fuzz pedals until I stumbles upon the issue on line. I havent had an active bass since I started playing so wasnt something I even considered. 

What are peoples experiences here? I don't mind so much about tone changes etc, but I worry more about level drop off and feedback etc.

One option is getting a deluxe big muff that has an extra feature for dealing with active but it seems a lot to go through, hassle and expense wise, to try a bass I have no guarantee of liking at the end of the day. 

It might be mute as next weekend I'm going to try out a few 2nd choice alternatives including the Yamaha BB range, but I'd like to know if dismissing the Model T just purely down to it being active is an error really. 

GAS TROUBLE!

Cheers in advance! 

[EBS_freak]

Most active basses are going to be OK with pedals. Some active circuits do not play well with pedals at all. It depends upon how much boost that your circuit is putting out and whether it slams the front input of the first pedal in the chain too hard. You can get around this by getting something like an EQ pedal that is left on all the time but the output is lowered... meaning that the next pedal in the chain isn't fed with a signal that is too hot.

[CameronJ]

10 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Most active basses are going to be OK with pedals. Some active circuits do not play well with pedals at all. It depends upon how much boost that your circuit is putting out and whether it slams the front input of the first pedal in the chain too hard. You can get around this by getting something like an EQ pedal that is left on all the time but the output is lowered... meaning that the next pedal in the chain isn't fed with a signal that is too hot.

This. I’ve been through countless pedals and use active basses almost exclusively. Never had any issues. It’s certainly possible but I wouldn’t worry about it.

I also love the look of the Model T - try it out, I say!

[Horrorhiker]

Superb guys, thanks for that. Thats definately given me food for thought. I guess at the end of the day, its better to have to change/buy another pedal than have a bass you always know isn't 'the one'. 

I shall keep you posted on the bass Cameron, if I get it. Possibly might be worth a trip to Brighton to try one. 

Cheers for that. 

[rmorris]

The basic issue here isn't that the signal level may be too high - though that is a possible issue it's usually relatively easily dealt with .

The specific issue with active basses and some effects is related to output impedance of the bass.

Some pedals - basically "Fuzz Face" type circuits (Zvex Wooly etc...) rely for their characteristics on the signal plugged into it having a high impedance.

Basically the output impedance of the bass is in series with the ...err...base of a BJT transistor and that influences the circuit operation.

And an 'ordinary' passive pickup(s) have quite a high output impedance so that's okay.

An 'active' pickup/preamp system has a much lower output impedance and the resulting sound from a "Fuzz" type circuit is generally thought to be undesireable.

It also follows from that that a "Fuzz" needs to be first thing in any chain so that it sees the pickup impedance.

To get around the problem you can try putting resistance (and optionally inductance) in series with the signal.

I think Zvex do this with a seperate pot on one of their Fuzz pedals ( I won't name it from memory in case I get it wrong but it'll be on the website I guess).

 

[Horrorhiker]

9 minutes ago, rmorris said:

The basic issue here isn't that the signal level may be too high - though that is a possible issue it's usually relatively easily dealt with .

The specific issue with active basses and some effects is related to output impedance of the bass.

Some pedals - basically "Fuzz Face" type circuits (Zvex Wooly etc...) rely for their characteristics on the signal plugged into it having a high impedance.

Basically the output impedance of the bass is in series with the ...err...base of a BJT transistor and that influences the circuit operation.

And an 'ordinary' passive pickup(s) have quite a high output impedance so that's okay.

An 'active' pickup/preamp system has a much lower output impedance and the resulting sound from a "Fuzz" type circuit is generally thought to be undesireable.

It also follows from that that a "Fuzz" needs to be first thing in any chain so that it sees the pickup impedance.

To get around the problem you can try putting resistance (and optionally inductance) in series with the signal.

I think Zvex do this with a seperate pot on one of their Fuzz pedals ( I won't name it from memory in case I get it wrong but it'll be on the website I guess).

 

Thanks for that. I know that EHX do this with the Bass Big Muff deluxe (have an extra pot). I think I'm on the side again of getting the bass and working around the issue (if there is one). I don't get too precious about tone etc, especially as is the nature of using fuzz etc, so as long as I can deal with any more technical problems, I might as well try it (or else I'll always wonder). 

Thanks again, these answers have helped a lot. I was gutted to think that bass was going to pass me by. 

[radiophonic]

As has been said, the two major issues are impedance with Germanium transistor fuzzes and output level causing input clipping. Personally I've also found that the more extreme EQ curve that an active bass can output can play a bit nasty with some distortions too and that a scooped sound combined with a distortion - esp with a clean blend - can introduce the 'parallel sounds' artefact where the low end is perceived as clean and all the distortion sounds like it on the top end. I didn't have much joy with a stingray and a Bass Big Muff but as always YMMV.  The really important thing though is not to make a decision until you've heard what it sounds like in the band situation you are in. What can can great played solo can be a mush once the drums kick off.

[dannybuoy]

Active basses are fine with the Bass Big Muff. In fact I think active basses sound better then passive basses into a Muff, as long as their output level isn't too high as to overload the front end of the fuzz circuit, and the Bass Big Muff handle more input then most Muffs. I put a buffered bypass pedal in front of my Green Russian as it makes the sound tighter and more defined vs plugging a passive bass straight in.

Fuzz Face based pedals can be a different story though, a Wooly Mammoth sounds thin with an active bass. Also a Malekko Diabolik (and therefore probably anything based on a Brassmaster) sounds different (not bad, just different) with an active bass.

[rmorris]

21 minutes ago, radiophonic said:

As has been said, the two major issues are impedance with Germanium transistor fuzzes

Just to note that the impedance issue relates to Si Transistors Fuzzes too, though the sound will differ (a bit :-)

[rmorris]

12 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

Active basses are fine with the Bass Big Muff. In fact I think active basses sound better then passive basses into a Muff, as long as their output level isn't too high as to overload the front end of the fuzz circuit, and the Bass Big Muff handle more input then most Muffs. I put a buffered bypass pedal in front of my Green Russian as it makes the sound tighter and more defined vs plugging a passive bass straight in.

Fuzz Face based pedals can be a different story though, a Wooly Mammoth sounds thin with an active bass. Also a Malekko Diabolik (and therefore probably anything based on a Brassmaster) sounds different (not bad, just different) with an active bass.

Yeah - I didn't t check the Big Muff type circuits. I was looking at Fuzz Face type circuits again the other day so was fresh in my mind.

Th Big Muff types have a 'proper' transistor buffer before the cliiping stage so should be okay with actives as you say.

The clipping stage is driven by the buffer stage. Meaning that the result should be more consistent with different pickups / basses.

Th input impedance is still quite low esp for a passive bass ( circa 140K) so in this case some form of True Bypass switching would be a good idea.

[ProjeKtWEREWOLF]

I play an active 5 string through an EHX Deluxe Big Muff pi  with zero issues. There is a switch for active /passive selection.

[EBS_freak]

As I said up top - EQ pedal. Gain reduction.. with buffer in front of first pedal...

[skidder652003]

want!

 

[Horrorhiker]

2 hours ago, skidder652003 said:

want!

 

Yep. This is the reason I could do with getting over the issue. I plan to play mine instead of tickling it though

 

[Horrorhiker]

3 hours ago, ProjeKtWEREWOLF said:

I play an active 5 string through an EHX Deluxe Big Muff pi  with zero issues. There is a switch for active /passive selection.

Yes Ive seen these. I think this will be my most likely route. Though I recently picked up one of those cheapo Donner fuzz pedals as a back up, and I have occasionally been using that instead of my EHX BBM. 

[ProjeKtWEREWOLF]

13 minutes ago, Horrorhiker said:

Yes Ive seen these. I think this will be my most likely route. Though I recently picked up one of those cheapo Donner fuzz pedals as a back up, and I have occasionally been using that instead of my EHX BBM. 

I have no issues using any of the 6 or so fuzz, overdrive  or distortion pedals with my active basses. Obviously, your  mileage may vary.  They are all 9v basses though.

[fretmeister]

ThorpyFX Fallout Cloud

 

It's a modern muff with an Active EQ in it. Handles active basses brilliantly.

[ahpook]

Here's something I pondered upon one day whilst thinking about impedance problems when driving certain sorts of fuzzes.

How about putting something with a less-than-ideal output impedance in front of the fuzz ? Something like an EHX LPB-1 ? The output impedance EHX quote is 10k...in the same ball park as a pickup.

So off I went and tried it - I added an LPB-1 circuit to a Woolly Mammoth clone I'd built and, well....gone was the thinness (also an extra gain stage....cool !). I've done the same trick with a Fuzz-Face a friend gave me....stick an LPB-1 in front at unity gain, it fattens it up nicely.

 

 

 

[Horrorhiker]

On 2/20/2018 at 18:56, ahpook said:

Here's something I pondered upon one day whilst thinking about impedance problems when driving certain sorts of fuzzes.

How about putting something with a less-than-ideal output impedance in front of the fuzz ? Something like an EHX LPB-1 ? The output impedance EHX quote is 10k...in the same ball park as a pickup.

So off I went and tried it - I added an LPB-1 circuit to a Woolly Mammoth clone I'd built and, well....gone was the thinness (also an extra gain stage....cool !). I've done the same trick with a Fuzz-Face a friend gave me....stick an LPB-1 in front at unity gain, it fattens it up nicely.

 

 

 

I'm not very technical but I think I get what you're saying. I was wondering if putting my Wah in front of my fuzz in the chain would help as its buffered bypass, which should help a bit? I have no real way of experimenting at the moment. Though I really do like fuzz to be before wah, so would probably end up needing something else anyway. 

[ahpook]

2 hours ago, Horrorhiker said:

I'm not very technical but I think I get what you're saying. I was wondering if putting my Wah in front of my fuzz in the chain would help as its buffered bypass, which should help a bit? I have no real way of experimenting at the moment. Though I really do like fuzz to be before wah, so would probably end up needing something else anyway. 

 

GIve it a try !  I guess it would depend on how the bypass is handled in the wah.

[mcnach]

On 2/19/2018 at 10:07, Horrorhiker said:

Sorry if this has been featured on here before, but Ive scoured what I can and get such conflicting information across loads of sites. 

Ive got my eye on a Schecter Model T session. I'm in love with the look of it, and although I would never usually buy a bass without trying it, the amount I like it, plus reviews and anecdotal comments make me think its worth the risk (with the option of a return). 

Anyway, the problem is that I almost exclusively use a Big Muff Bass at the moment. I like the sound of fuzz bass, my bands are happy with the sound, so I don't really want to mess about with the formula too much. 

The Model T is active only, and I didnt realise there was a problem with active/fuzz pedals until I stumbles upon the issue on line. I havent had an active bass since I started playing so wasnt something I even considered. 

What are peoples experiences here? I don't mind so much about tone changes etc, but I worry more about level drop off and feedback etc.

One option is getting a deluxe big muff that has an extra feature for dealing with active but it seems a lot to go through, hassle and expense wise, to try a bass I have no guarantee of liking at the end of the day. 

It might be mute as next weekend I'm going to try out a few 2nd choice alternatives including the Yamaha BB range, but I'd like to know if dismissing the Model T just purely down to it being active is an error really. 

GAS TROUBLE!

Cheers in advance! 

 

If there's an issue it is more with how hot the output of a bass is, which affects how many pedals sound. But that's not an active/passive thing as there are actives with mild and even lowish output and passives with high output. Active = high output is a myth.

Most basses are ok with most pedals, and at worst, you may need to turn down the volume on your bass a bit if a pedal does not work the way you want it due to a high input. You can also use an EQ or clean boost pedal before that tricky pedal to lower your signal... there's a number of ways to get around it.

In short: I would not worry... get the bass you want, and see what happens. Chances are NOTHING will happen. You may need the drive knob a bit higher or lower than you're used to (because no two basses are alike), but that's likely all. And if not, there are simple solutions but I would not worry until you're there. I never had  much trouble, playing a mix of active and passive basses.