Precision Bass E String Tension Issue

[olliedf89]

Hi All,

Last year I bought a brand new MIM Precision from GAK but I'm having an issue with the E string tension...

Basically, the E string does not carry the same tension as the other three strings, and as a result sounds much more dead than the others and seems to dull much quicker. This means that when you play the E string it doesn't react or 'bounce back' the same way as the others do. This is noticeable with all techniques but mostly recognisable with fingers and especially with the open E. For example if I'm playing a simple riff that involves open notes and fretted notes, it will often feel like I'm playing out of time because the string doesn't react in the same way as the others.

Playing in a covers band this is really noticeable when I drop to D or have to pedal an open E note, and when I play through my 410 I notice just how dead and lacklustre the E sounds. It's like someone's secretly muting the E string for me. Just doesn't cut through the same.

Raising the action does alleviate the problem slightly but by the time it becomes comfortable, it has thrown the feel of the whole bass off and I feel that having to adjust a brand new £600 bass to a stupid set up just to alleviate a problem shouldn't have to happen.

Also, tuning the E up to F or F# greatly alleviates the problem and increases the tension, but I'm not entirely sure what to do with that information! 

 

I had this same problem with a Squier 60s CV bass a few years back, and ended up selling the bass after I got nowhere with the issue. I also had a similar problem with a MIM PJ passive Deluxe which I bought off here second hand, though I fixed that issue with a new bridge eventually (something I will try next).

When I previously took a bass with this problem to a tech, the responses have been a mixture of "no problem here" to "it's your technique not the bass" and I even had a local tech phone me up to tell me it was because I bought a Squier (from the shop HE worked with) and then took the time to explain the differences between Squier and Fender.

 

The things I have investigated:
New strings (I've owned it 6 months and replaced the strings frequently- always D'addario XL170s (45-100s) I have heard that people regularly do just get dead strings but this has happened so consistently now that I feel I can eliminate that as an issue) 

A proper set up (as of now I had the bass set up professionally a week ago with new strings by a chap I trust and have used before, though I'm not saying he's perfect)

The pickups are owned from new Fender 62RIs (which I also had in the 60sCV which had the same problem, but as I had the problem before the pickups I think I should eliminate them as a problem, though I'm happy to change them if needs be).

My technique- I do dig in hard, I was bought up on RHCP lines so think a bit of Flea, but never had any issues on any other basses regardless of strings, set up or any other components. (I own several other basses- G&L L2000 Tribute, Lakland Skyline 44-01, 3x Ibanez ATKs, Fender PJ and have played other people's basses too)

I've played plugged and unplugged and the problem is definitely apparent without amplification but definitely exacerbated with a large amp. It is made better when I use my compressor, though.

 

 

Next things for me to try are:
New bridge (Northwest Guitars are out of stock currently) unless anyone can recommend anything else?) They're sub £20 on there and I have had success with them previously.
New string guages... thicker? thinner? different brand? should I have to adjust my string preference just because a bass doesn't get along with them?

 

Apologies for the essay! I'm all ears for any responses! Thank you!

 

 

 

[Muppet]

I have found some strings to work better with some basses than others so changing brand may be an option. 

How is your E string seated on the nut and tuning post?

Do you have a bass playing friend who you could get to try the bass to get a second opinion?

[olliedf89]

5 minutes ago, Muppet said:

I have found some strings to work better with some basses than others so changing brand may be an option. 

How is your E string seated on the nut and tuning post?

Do you have a bass playing friend who you could get to try the bass to get a second opinion?

Okay, cool, I'll switch up brands next time. I think they're seated fine as far as I can tell, no movement, fairly neat and tidy, doesn't look any different from any other bass I've got, no damage or anything unusual.

I've been in search of a bass playing friend for that reason! Unfortunately just haven't had the time to cross paths lately, I'll see if I can arrange something for an upcoming gig. 

I've only found guitar players to ask lately. They seem confused at the size and lack of extra strings and tend to just blackout. Alright I made that last bit up.

Thanks for your advice!

[KiOgon]

3 minutes ago, olliedf89 said:

- - - "I've only found guitar players to ask lately. They seem confused at the size and lack of extra strings and tend to just blackout. Alright I made that last bit up."

[KiOgon]

@Muppet I couldn't agree more about strings suiting basses, horses for courses, also strings that suit players 

Have you also had a very close look at the bridge especially the E saddle? Nut is often the cause, could be too tight or loose for the gauge, string wound down the tuner post as far as poosible, creates a decent break angle, tuner components all tight?

[olliedf89]

15 minutes ago, KiOgon said:

@Muppet I couldn't agree more about strings suiting basses, horses for courses, also strings that suit players 

Have you also had a very close look at the bridge especially the E saddle? Nut is often the cause, could be too tight or loose for the gauge, string wound down the tuner post as far as poosible, creates a decent break angle, tuner components all tight?

Okay, cool, I'm in town shortly I might pick up a set of thicker Ernie Balls or something if that sounds sensible!?

Yes I recently read about and started to adjust the break angle of new strings from the nut to the tuning post in order to create a more definite break angle, that helped. However, when it comes to identifying problems with the Nut, I'm not sure what I'm looking for... there's no major gaps or any movement. Certainly nothing unusual compared to any other bass I've got!

The bridge is for sure where my concerns lie as I replaced the bridge on a previous Fender with success. I'm always unsettled by the lack of grooves for the saddle to sit in, this means it tends to shift about a bit, I'm sure that's not really a problem but it does make me question it's ability to stay stable and therefore keep tension. Generally speaking though... good break angle, everything is tight and well adjusted. Maybe my technique and I just don't get on with fender stock bridges!

[olliedf89]

Oh and thanks for your input!

[KiOgon]

I can't comment on your choice of cheese graters I only use Flatwounds, favourites - GHS Precision bass 45-105 IIRC on P-basses and strangely enough TI JF344s on Jazzes, that's what works for ME

[olliedf89]

33 minutes ago, KiOgon said:

I can't comment on your choice of cheese graters I only use Flatwounds, favourites - GHS Precision bass 45-105 IIRC on P-basses and strangely enough TI JF344s on Jazzes, that's what works for ME

Of course, but it's reassuring and enlightening to hear what other people are using. Maybe I'll go back to flats again, hadn't considered that in a while!

[gary mac]

Have you checked out the pinned thread about Bass Chatters willing to help out? Maybe one of us is close enough to be able to have a look.

[PaulWarning]

you could try 105's as your E string, they'll  be a tighter tension, I've never had this trouble but mines a MIA with high mass bridge and grooves for the string

[pineweasel]

If you like the D’Addario EXL170 set then maybe the balanced tension set would work better? EXL170BT, 45-107. I like them on my Precision. 

[LITTLEWING]

One more thing to try that a lot of people don't do - when new strings go on you MUST (after tuning to concert pitch) push each string down with moderate pressure immediately after the saddle on the pickup side to create a 'witness point' and a break angle that end. This will complete the nut to saddle singing length. 

The other thing that kills an E string is inadvertenly running one's thumb up and down filling the windings with crud. Keep that digit behind the neck as much as possible.

[olliedf89]

On 04/02/2018 at 14:43, gary mac said:

Have you checked out the pinned thread about Bass Chatters willing to help out? Maybe one of us is close enough to be able to have a look.

Good shout, totally didn't register with that, thanks!

 

On 04/02/2018 at 16:27, pineweasel said:

If you like the D’Addario EXL170 set then maybe the balanced tension set would work better? EXL170BT, 45-107. I like them on my Precision. 

Been doing a bit of research into strings and actually thought they looked pretty decent, I've got a few strings saved I'm comparing to see what I like the look of the best. I'm leaning towards some 105 flatwounds at the mo! Thanks!
 

 

On 04/02/2018 at 18:02, LITTLEWING said:

One more thing to try that a lot of people don't do - when new strings go on you MUST (after tuning to concert pitch) push each string down with moderate pressure immediately after the saddle on the pickup side to create a 'witness point' and a break angle that end. This will complete the nut to saddle singing length. 

The other thing that kills an E string is inadvertenly running one's thumb up and down filling the windings with crud. Keep that digit behind the neck as much as possible.

I recently discovered this practice and have been doing it ever since, it definitely makes a difference for sure. Ah I tend not to use my thumb that much, but I'll make sure I keep an eye out just in case.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions, I'm going to get some new strings when my bank kindly allows me and have a fiddle, then to a new bridge and finally I'll give the pinned thread a shout if not!

 

[Lozz196]

On 04/02/2018 at 18:02, LITTLEWING said:

One more thing to try that a lot of people don't do - when new strings go on you MUST (after tuning to concert pitch) push each string down with moderate pressure immediately after the saddle on the pickup side to create a 'witness point' and a break angle that end. This will complete the nut to saddle singing length.

Not heard of this before, thanks for this contribution, will give it a go.

[mybass]

As a check......pickup height, is it too near the E string, it could possibly restrict string vibration if it’s too close.

[gary mac]

13 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

Not heard of this before, thanks for this contribution, will give it a go.

It wants doing every time Lozz, I did it when working on your bass

[Lozz196]

19 minutes ago, gary mac said:

It wants doing every time Lozz, I did it when working on your bass

So another factor of why that one plays and holds tune so well. 

[olliedf89]

10 hours ago, mybass said:

As a check......pickup height, is it too near the E string, it could possibly restrict string vibration if it’s too close.

Had that recently sorted by a tech, had them in all sorts of heights over the last few months to no difference on the main issue, so I think I can eliminate that now! Thanks!

[Grangur]

Given that a string that's made as an "E" string, on a bass of 34" scale length, needs to achieve a pre-determined tension for it to put out a note that will be an "E". I find it hard to see how this can happen, unless the string is faulty, or you're tuning it to an E an octave lower than the actual E that it's meant to be putting out.

Either that, or the tuning head isn't keeping the string to tension.

[Huge Hands]

If you're a finger player, it might be worth thumbing the string downward instead of plucking upward to see if there is a difference in volume. 

I've had a couple of 5 string projects where the low string travels outside the pickup's range and sounds muted.  If you thumb it downward, it stays within the range for the initial attack.

I'm not saying to change your playing style, just do it to test the pickup 

[olliedf89]

On 06/02/2018 at 12:04, Huge Hands said:

If you're a finger player, it might be worth thumbing the string downward instead of plucking upward to see if there is a difference in volume. 

I've had a couple of 5 string projects where the low string travels outside the pickup's range and sounds muted.  If you thumb it downward, it stays within the range for the initial attack.

I'm not saying to change your playing style, just do it to test the pickup 

Oooh interesting suggestion, I'll give it a whirl. Thanks!

[mcnach]

On 2/4/2018 at 18:02, LITTLEWING said:

One more thing to try that a lot of people don't do - when new strings go on you MUST (after tuning to concert pitch) push each string down with moderate pressure immediately after the saddle on the pickup side to create a 'witness point' and a break angle that end. This will complete the nut to saddle singing length. 

 

A guitar tech showed me that years ago. Always press the strings at the nut and saddles (as well as generally being sensible when winding strings leaving no slack and not winding more turns than needed... 2-3 is plenty). Tuning stability from t=0 ever since. It used to be a mystery to me how these guitarists could be handed freshly strung guitars onstage gig after gig and not suffer from tuning issues... that's why.

[Frank Blank]

7 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

On 2/4/2018 at 18:02, LITTLEWING said:

One more thing to try that a lot of people don't do - when new strings go on you MUST (after tuning to concert pitch) push each string down with moderate pressure immediately after the saddle on the pickup side to create a 'witness point' and a break angle that end. This will complete the nut to saddle singing length. 

The other thing that kills an E string is inadvertenly running one's thumb up and down filling the windings with crud. Keep that digit behind the neck as much as possible.

The luthier who sets up my guitars showed me this, the benefits of such a seemingly small action are immense.

 

[olliedf89]

Okay everyone, thank you all for your assistance so far.

So I've popped on some thicker strings and installed them as suggested, making sure to create a witness point and did a bit of reading around to make sure I was doing it right, and while the tension has increased, the problem is still noticeably there to me. Been playing the bass normally for a few days, no gigs just a few hours of practise, and (at least in my head) the E is already starting to dull slightly. I'm sure my neighbours are starting to agree!

Things I have done in an effort to find a solution:
Pro set up
New strings/different brands
Filmed my playing and I don't run my thumb on the E string, or rest it on the E string to play.
Pickup heights have been adjusted up and down all over the place to no real difference...
Adjusted my playing style, and while other styles do help to eliminate aspects of the problem, sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't, but ultimately, I don't feel that I should only be able to play the bass with one specific style... kind of makes it a bit pointless having, especially when it's a 'versatile' P bass.

So I've found a few things that help,  but ultimately they all seem to be just accommodating the problem or incorporating it rather than fixing it. 

The thing that really makes me frustrated is that I've played all number quality/brands of basses for 10+ years now, throwing strings on and off and playing them with all manner off terrible setups, and it strikes me as odd that the only one I feel uncomfortable with is the brand new Fender P. Surely for such a widely produced and popular instrument, it cant require such technical skill and care to keep it well set up. Surely the point of the Precision is largely that it's a very simple, accessible instrument?

I think my next step is going to be a new bridge... My other Fender PJ greatly improved when I replaced the original bridge and I think I'm going to do the same. The one I would normally go for is sold out so I've found this one... seems reasonable... any brief opinions????
https://www.thomann.de/gb/fender_hi_mass_bridge_iv_brass.htm?ref=search_rslt_hi+mass+iv_385092_0

I haven't got tons of time this month but I see there are a few techs local to Sussex who I could get in touch with on the previously mentioned BC's willing to help thread, so if the bridge fails, I will probably go with that. Or just take up the flute or something.

Edited February 10, 2018 by olliedf89