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High Pass Filters


funkydoug

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21 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said:

@Al Krow, sounds like your cab is faulty! I'd be looking to locate the rattly part and fix it!

However, there is likely a particular set of frequencies which are settting it off, so if you're going to fix it with EQ, the Dual Para should help you do it with the least effect on tone. You can sweep the frequency around to get the best results, and reduce the Q and degree of cut until you have the best results with the least actually missing from your signal. For extra effectiveness, cutting again an octave above the first frequency will make it possible for both cuts to be even smaller.

As someone also mentioned above, do make sure it is definitely your cab. Rattles in a room can play all sorts of tricks on your ears when bass is concerned!

If it was just one cab, I'd be concerned, but it happens with just one bass (Yammy B1025) which is well known for having relatively hot pups and with both my Vanderkley and Mesa cabs, which are in great condition and have had home use only (just a quick plug in case I ever sell them :) ) and this does not occur with any of my other 4 basses. So I appreciate your concern about my cabs, but they're just fine thanks! :) 

It's also more pronounced on the P bass with tone dialled off to give it a more sub-by sound. 

Just dialling the bass and the mids back solves the issue for the Yammy P bass, so maybe that's the easy solution.

But the Zoom B3n GEQ also seems to be working a treat, too, so I'm making progress.

Edited by Al Krow
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10 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said:

Smashing, I'll look that up, thanks!

Would be good to see the graphs if you have time. My studio (OK, the rack with my recording gear in it) isn't hooked up at the moment, so will need reconfiguring before I can do anything with it!

Many Thanks.

Here you go. Top line is off, then Depth 10 - 0 (gain 50, bass toTreble  0) . Looks like once you get down to 15Hz and lower the white noise is a little less stable. 

But it gives you the idea.

EDIT: If you want a bigger chart with compensation for the drop in signal, from 600Hz up, let me know. But that'll take a little while to knock up

ac-bs-pre.jpg.111537bdda2846d6fafe1bc3de662f92.jpg

Edited by bartelby
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42 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

I'm sure the person who said the Zoom could be used as an LPF was using the model of the Fishman preamp rather than the generic para EQ?

Which Zoom pedals have this Fishman preamp effect on, do you know? Definitely seems to be absent on both my MS-60B's 142 effects and B3n's 67 effects. In its absence, I guess I'll be making do with the GEQ on the B3n (this only has the ineffective single band para noted above) or the dual para (assuming it is more effective than the B3n's single para) or GEQ on the MS-60B.

@bartelbyif you have a MS-60B, can I trouble you to model (i) the dual para at full cut at 30Hz and 10kHz with a mid Q settting and (ii) the GEQ on the MS-60B with full cut at 50Hz and 10kHz (the GEQ doesn't has low a start point as the dual para, for those of you who don't have the MS-60B), please?

Edited by Al Krow
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From the chart looks like it is better suited to cutting out audible lows than being a sharp rolloff at 30Hz Thumpinator kind of filter. But that's probably just what Al needs if he doesn't want to fix his cab!

Edited by dannybuoy
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4 minutes ago, bartelby said:

I only have the B3 I'm afraid.

No worries, mate, you've been a star already. I'll use my ears - they were pretty accurate in assessing the relative effectiveness of the B3n GEQ vs the PEQ earlier today :) 

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5 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

From the chart looks like it is better suited to cutting out audible lows than being a sharp rolloff at 30Hz Thumpinator kind of filter. But that's probably just what Al needs if he doesn't want to fix his cab!

Lol! 

"Dear cab maker - please could you provide me a quote for establishing the cause and repairing the imaginary faults in these two excellent cabs?"

"Certainly Sir. That will be an arm and a leg"

"Well that's going to make playing the bass, tricky isn't it?"

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1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Which Zoom pedals have this Fishman preamp effect on, do you know? Definitely seems to be absent on both my MS-60B's 142 effects and B3n's 67 effects. In its absence, I guess I'll be making do with the GEQ on the B3n (this only has the ineffective single band para noted above) or the dual para (assuming it is more effective than the B3n's single para) or GEQ on the MS-60B.

MS60B has the AC BS PRE according to the effect list on their website. If the effects blocks in the effect list are the same as on the pedal it should be between "bass pre" and "SVT".

Edited by Bigwan
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I gigged a room once and every time I played a G note the room - not an 80lb combo, the friggin' room, rattled. "Can you not play that note?" asks the sound man! My response was along the lines of "Ach away and F**K right off! The only sympathetic thing you'll hear in here tonight mate is that vibration now get it fixed and do your job."

I miss the good old days...*sigh*

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7 hours ago, Al Krow said:

If it was just one cab, I'd be concerned, but it happens with just one bass (Yammy B1025) which is well known for having relatively hot pups and with both my Vanderkley and Mesa cabs, which are in great condition and have had home use only (just a quick plug in case I ever sell them :) ) and this does not occur with any of my other 4 basses. So I appreciate your concern about my cabs, but they're just fine thanks! :) 

It's also more pronounced on the P bass with tone dialled off to give it a more sub-by sound. 

Just dialling the bass and the mids back solves the issue for the Yammy P bass, so maybe that's the easy solution.

But the Zoom B3n GEQ also seems to be working a treat, too, so I'm making progress.

If you leave the eq flat, but turn down the volume on the bass, the disappearance of the problem would indicate a preamp overload - might be worth checking that out if you haven't already.

David

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1 hour ago, Mottlefeeder said:

If you leave the eq flat, but turn down the volume on the bass, the disappearance of the problem would indicate a preamp overload - might be worth checking that out if you haven't already.

David

Hmmm...that's a very good thought. And as @krispn has just pointed out to me separately - a very easy / 'obvious' thing for me to do would be to lower the pup height below the strings which should mean that they don't run quite so hot. I'm guessing that is probably the single biggest factor feeding into preamp overload, given that I'm not getting this issue on any of my other basses? Anything else on the preamp front I should be looking out for?

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18 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

Preamp overload does not make your cab rattle.

But they're not doing it by themselves and not also doing it at the same volume with any other of my basses and it's an issue that is happening with both my (otherwise very capable) rigs. So there is something going on here - and I'm pretty sure it is do with the hot Yammy pups - I've got a feeling that the above simple solution could well do the trick. Did you adjust the height of your pups at all when you set your 1025 up?

I'll give it a try tomorrow. And if that doesn't solve it, I've got a date on Friday night with a 12 stinger and I'll take my Yammy along to his to see if it can make his rig rattle too :) 

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If your preamp was overloaded you might hear distortion or see the clip light come on more, but that's it. Basses naturally have different output levels, but this is what the gain control on the amp is for. By all means get the bass set up so it's sounding it's best, but adjusting pickup heights so all your basses have the same volume night not be the best way to go. I did adjust my pickup heights, but it's something I do when setting up all my basses.

If your cab is rattling then it is simply getting too much low end energy at a particular frequency or it might have some damping or build issues. Lowering the pickup might stop it rattling simply because you are lowering the volume - but you would get the same effect by simply turning down the gain, bass EQ or master volume on the amp. If you then turned up the master so you had the same output level, then expect the rattling to come back.

If you find that a Thumpinator doesn't help, but want to chop off the deepest lows that are making your cab sweat without affecting the audible lows very much (like the bass EQ on the amp would), an adjustable HPF is just the ticket. Give the AcBs Pre (or whatever it was called) in the Zoom a bash, and if it turns out to be a good solution you know you can get that in a standalone pedal from Broughton!

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1 hour ago, dannybuoy said:

...but want to chop off the deepest lows that are making your cab sweat without affecting the audible lows very much (like the bass EQ on the amp would), an adjustable HPF is just the ticket. Give the AcBs Pre (or whatever it was called) in the Zoom a bash, and if it turns out to be a good solution you know you can get that in a standalone pedal from Broughton!

Cheers DB, all of that makes sense. Your final point I've quoted above is very much what I've thinking from the outset of this thread - it feels like we've been going round in circles a bit, but I'm 100% in agreement with this! 

I'll be having a play with the 'AC Bs Pre' and the 'Ba PEQ' (2 band para EQ) on the Zoom MS-60B today and see how they stack up against the GEQ on the Zoom B3n; hopefully they will be just as good if not better.

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Hmmm...just wondering if I'm going to end up spending a couple of £hundred on a Broughton HPF / LPF if it would make sense to go one step further and get the Tech 21 Q Strip? This is the other pedal with both an HPF and LPF (plus a para EQ and a DI out, so does a lot more than the Brougton) and it has all analog circuitry and the whole package of this and the Broughton will obviously be a step up from what a Zoom MS-60B can deliver with its digital simulated effects.

Had a look at the spec and doesn't seem to say on the Tech 21 website at what freqs the HPF and LPF kick in and how much they cut by? Freq response curves for this anyone - maybe @Tech21NYC can jump in on this one?

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It's way more expensive, much bigger and the HPF isn't adjustable. The Broughton is all analog as well btw. Depends if you can sacrifice the cash, board space and lack of adjustable HPF so that you can acquire another EQ and DI output? (I thought not!)

I would go with the $70 or $95 HPF unless you need the LPF as well to act as a cab sim for dirt pedals (and since you're using the amp drive with it's tone control, the LPF is probably redundant). Or try and pick up a used Thumpinator first, they pop up reasonably often!

Edited by dannybuoy
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54 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Hmmm...just wondering if I'm going to end up spending a couple of £hundred on a Broughton HPF / LPF if it would make sense to go one step further and get the Tech 21 Q Strip? This is the other pedal with both an HPF and LPF (plus a para EQ and a DI out, so does a lot more than the Brougton) and it has all analog circuitry and the whole package of this and the Broughton will obviously be a step up from what a Zoom MS-60B can deliver with its digital simulated effects.

Had a look at the spec and doesn't seem to say on the Tech 21 website at what freqs the HPF and LPF kick in and how much they cut by? Freq response curves for this anyone - maybe @Tech21NYC can jump in on this one?

I know how this kind of thinking works and it leads, step by step, to you parting with more cash than you may actually need to!

It sounds like you either need to use (not own) a notch filter to find the problem frequency or use a variable HPF to eliminate the deep bass / inaudible stuff. Q strip seems like something you want more than need!! I 've been there too :) 

For what its worth I've bought the Broughton HPF (not the HPF+LPF) and shipped to the UK its was under £100. Not got it yet. If you don't need a LPF (doesn't seem you need one) then the Broughton solution isn't as close to Q strip money as you might think, and the HPF is variable.  Also worth noting that Josh (Broughton) does make a smaller, cheaper, non-variable HPF too.

As for Q strip HPF frequency, I don't know but the paradriver v2 has one too (Rumble Filter), and Tech21 chipped in to this thread about where it kicks in (100hz he thinks). Of course, Q Strip may be different, FWIW:

 

Edited by funkydoug
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