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Fake logos on instruments


prowla

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It's important to remember that John Hall's RIC is actually a small family business whose protection of their trade dress (or IP, if you will) is vitally important to their continuing to market their brand and products succesfully. They also rely strongly on a rabid & largely all-American fan/customer base to help them do this.

Fender, on the other hand, is a wealthy multinational who don't need to waste energy on small-fry like BC sinced they intelligently managed to corner the market on decent licensed copies in the early 80s - which is why we have Squiers. Gibson did the same thing with Epiphone.

Not sure I'm right in thinking that Limelight no longer flog their expensive knockoffs with Fender logos, but if so it's presumably because FMIC had a little word.

FWIW, not sure if it makes me a whiney, first-world-problems, boo-hoo snowflake or whatever - but I do consider copies with fake logos to be somewhat akin to that kid in the 70s who scraped the "Satellite" logo off his plywood LP copy and daubed "Gibson" on, with white Humbrol model paint. A tiny little bit tragic.

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14 minutes ago, prowla said:

...

Selling an item which is counterfeit is illegal.

...

 

10 minutes ago, prowla said:

It would help prevent mis-selling and misrepresentation.

Sorry to 'bang on' about this, but I really think it needs nailing down.

I think we all agree that BC should not (indeed; does not...) condone nor allow illegal activity, in the Marketplace nor elsewhere. We may (or may not..? Any dissenters..?) agree that counterfeiting is illegal, and that application of a trademark other than by its owner is counterfeiting. It would follow, then, that it beholds BC to withdraw any such activity when spotted, by whomsoever. Is this what is recommended..?

Is it the 'illegality' that troubles you, or the risk of mis-selling and misrepresentation (or both...)..?

Edited by Dad3353
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1 minute ago, Dad3353 said:

 

Sorry to 'bang on' about this, but I really think it needs nailing down.

I think we all agree that BC should not (indeed; does not...) condone nor allow illegal activity, in the Marketplace nor elsewhere...). We may (or may not..? Any dissenters..?) agree that counterfeiting is illegal, and that application of a trademark other than by its owner is counterfeiting. It would follow, then, that it beholds BC to withdraw any such activity when spotted, by whomsoever. Is this what is recommended..?

Is it the 'illegality' that troubles you, or the risk of mis-selling and misrepresentation (or both...)..?

From my perspective, it is more the latter, maybe 60/40.

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Pragmatically, I think it would be good if any fake-logo'd bass sold here was *very* clearly labelled as such.

The fact one member has bought a Limelight assuming it wasn't a copy does demonstrate that it is a potential issue.

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1 minute ago, wateroftyne said:

Can you post links to BC threads to illustrate the depth of this problem?

Well, I haven't compiled an exhaustive list; as it stands, there's the two examples mentioned a couple of times in this thread, ie. the Limelight and the ebay discussions (which actually are examples of folks here doing the right thing with reference to another site which BC-ers likely frequent).

I'm sure they're not unique, but I don't have supporting figures

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Has anyone warned our brethren on Table Chat about these issues?

After all there is a huge market for reproduction and replica antique furniture, which could be potentially passed off as the genuine article by an unscrupulous seller to an unwitting buyer.

Perhaps all furniture sales should be suspended whilst the issues are considered?

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1 minute ago, discreet said:

Beans..? Bran Flakes..? Is there a pattern (and nothing else) emerging here?

Not just b's, when I used to eat cereals, I ate cheerios, and one day I got some tesco ones, as I thought they would be basically the same, turns out they are like cardboard, really really horrible.

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14 minutes ago, Bassassin said:

The fact one member has bought a Limelight assuming it wasn't a copy does demonstrate that it is a potential issue.

One member. One bass. Potentially an issue, but in practice, probably not. :)

12 minutes ago, prowla said:

...there's the two examples mentioned a couple of times in this thread, ie. the Limelight and the eBay discussions...

eBay has nothing to do with BassChat, so that's one example. Just one. And that has proved to be down to a simple misunderstanding. So the number of incidences of the deliberate posting of a fake bass that had a a brand decal applied to it, thus making it seem like something that it wasn't, that was bought in error by a BassChat member thinking it was 'the real thing': Zero. Nil. None. Nix. Nada.

I rest my case.

Edited by discreet
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3 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Fender have been in massive debt for years.

The point I'm trying to (probaly clumsily!) make is that copy sales on the likes of BC do not threaten their business, in the way they potentially would to Rickenbacker.

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11 minutes ago, prowla said:

Well, I haven't compiled an exhaustive list; as it stands, there's the two examples mentioned a couple of times in this thread, ie. the Limelight and the ebay discussions (which actually are examples of folks here doing the right thing with reference to another site which BC-ers likely frequent).

I'm sure they're not unique, but I don't have supporting figures

Right.

Tell me - do you have any plans to appear on Dragons' Den?

Edited by wateroftyne
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2 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

I mean no disrespect but that is a bit of a schoolboy error. Limelight is well renowned on this site and it would have been simplicity itself to find out that Limelight don't do that kind of thing. I would be amazed if the original advert had any room for doubt of the authenticity of the instrument (I would think the price itself was a give-away).

As I said, I mean no disrespect but the cost of a Limelight relic against the original thing (even a Fender relic) would surely have prompted some questions about the authenticity.

Bet it's a great bass too.

You completely right Steve and @Prowla. It really makes me look stupid and I'm sure to many of you its hard to believe. I've heard of Limelight for sure, however, i have genuinely never looked into what they do. I really thought that they were like AMG for Mercs etc. The original advert that I bought it from was not misleading in any way. It stated "Limelight Fender etc" I am an impulsive buyer and not the most technically minded When I saw it I just bought it. It really was that simple. I hope I haven't damaged my reputation too much, anyone who wants to check my feedback will see how long I've been trading and been a member. If anything I think this is an example of how supportive the community is in pointing out to stupid " Schoolboys" like me the error of their ways.  If there are any Mods/Admin following if you feel I should remove the ad, I'm more than happy too. Or just bin it yourselves.

The bigger argument is clearly one for the forum mods and admin to discuss. However, with the level of scrutiny provided by members as in this case, I doubt this is a site many fakers would attempt to infiltrate.

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1 hour ago, discreet said:

Um... that's pretty much what happens, only the cheaper brand are... cheaper. Supermarkets don't have their own baked bean factories obviously, they are all canned in the same place - only the labels are different. The perceived value of baked beans is in the premium label, which is what you pay extra for. The beans themselves are largely the same.

I used to have a summer job in a cannery.

Amongst other delights we made beans for one majorish brand (either HP or Daddy's, my memory fails me) as well for three supermarkets and a couple of budget lines.

The recipe and cooking instructions did actually vary slightly for each different line, though, as far as i could tell, not being a bean connoisseur, the same type and grade of beans were used in all products.

 

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10 minutes ago, discreet said:

One member. One bass. Potentially an issue, but in practice, probably not. :)

Yes - probably. But suppose that member had got angry about it and reported BC to FMIC's UK operation for allowing the sale of counterfeits. Might well result in a C&D letter.

Also BC has a good reputation as a instrument marketplace. Someone with an axe to grind on social media could do damage to that if they chose.

I certainly wouldn't prohibit sale of copy-logo'd basses but an absolute clarity policy wouldn't hurt.

Edited by Bassassin
syntax errors originally did it have. and speling
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4 minutes ago, Cato said:

The recipe and cooking instructions did actually vary slightly for each different line, though, as far as i could tell, not being a bean connoisseur, the same type and grade of beans were used in all products.

Thanks for that... I bet they all produced a similar amount of flatulence, so job done... :D

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1 minute ago, Bassassin said:

I certainly wouldn't prohibit sale of copy-logo'd basses but an absolute clarity policy clarity wouldn't hurt.

I'm all for that, as any bass I've sold here is always very clearly described - so if the site wants to issue an edict to the tune of 'all basses with aftermarket decals applied must be clearly described as such' that's fine by me, as it's what I do anyway. It's just common sense, really - but as is increasingly the case case with common sense, it seems to be getting less common all the time and people have to be legislated or otherwise prodded into doing the right thing. I blame education cuts. ;)

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1 minute ago, discreet said:

Thanks for that... I bet they all produced a similar amount of flatulence, so job done... :D

Always happy to educate the masses on the technicalities of tinned food.

It makes me think that my summer of pallet truck racing, conveyor belt surfing and clean up hose fights in the factory wasn't entirely wasted.

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15 minutes ago, KingPrawn said:

It really makes me look stupid and I'm sure to many of you its hard to believe. The original advert that I bought it from was not misleading in any way. It stated "Limelight Fender etc" I am an impulsive buyer and not the most technically minded When I saw it I just bought it. It really was that simple. I hope I haven't damaged my reputation too much, anyone who wants to check my feedback will see how long I've been trading and been a member.

You do not 'look stupid' in the slightest and none of this is in any way your fault! It's a very easy mistake to make if you don't spend most of your waking hours glued to your computer screen looking at bass guitars, like some people I could mention. I don't do that of course, I'm hardly ever here. I only popped in briefly because it's the holidays. :/

You haven't damaged your reputation at all, if anything it has been enhanced by this thread! Calm down and carry on! Happy New Year! :)

 

Edited by discreet
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11 minutes ago, Bassassin said:

Yes - probably. But suppose that member had got angry about it and reported BC to FMIC's UK operation for allowing the sale of counterfeits. Might well result in a C&D letter.

 

I very much doubt it. Ebay have been doing it for years. Maybe if it was prolific, but one incident is unlikely to even register anywhere

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19 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Right.

Tell me - do you have any plans to appear on Dragons' Den?

Well, if I were to, I would've prepared a business case in advance, formulated a product strategy, and practiced responses to possible questions.

However, this isn't Dragon's Den and this thread is a discussion.

:-)

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