Live bands compress bass - since when?!

[51m0n]

Pshhh 3:00 thats just editing wonks looking for good shots, 1:40 looks like he could be playing a hammeron with his left hand, have you seen him play Chapman Stick ??? 

[Tonteee]

All of it could be sloppy editing / post-prod.  In no way knocking Tony Levin.  He's a marvellous player.

[toneknob]

Here's Tony Levin's world-class effects board currently accompanying him on tour with world class King Crimson. Analogman Bi-Comp there for all to see

https://reverb.com/news/on-stage-with-king-crimson-the-live-rig-of-the-radical-action-tour

 

 

[toneknob]

And some not so world class photos from the Analogman website: http://www.analogman.com/tlev.htm

 

[51m0n]

Just now, toneknob said:

And some not so world class photos from the Analogman website: http://www.analogman.com/tlev.htm

 

Bwahahahaaaaa!

[JBP]

2 minutes ago, toneknob said:

And some not so world class photos from the Analogman website: http://www.analogman.com/tlev.htm

 

He seems to have become a bit of a Darkglass fan since then.

[tonyquipment]

20 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Tony interesting you put it in those terms, 'cos what you're implying is that if you're a sufficiently competent player you won't need to use a compressor?

I guess that is really what is underlying my Q about what is it that pro bass players are typically doing? Let's assume they don't have the benefit of sound engineers for a particular gig, would they all be saying 'ok best get my Cali 76 CB (or whatever their favourite 'squeeze' happens to be) on my board for this gig then?' or 'cos they are excellent bass players would they not really ever bother? 

Pretty much. I like a squashed signal so I don’t need to worry about digging in or any other dynamics. I just hit the strings and the tone is the same no matter how hard I play. Consistancy in tone. But yeah I’m lazy. Haha

[Dood]

On 11/12/2017 at 10:54, BigRedX said:

Most bassists who claim not to need compression probably have something in their signal chain that is actually doing the job of a compressor. Where it is valves in the amp or something in the sound coming out of the PA.

The only way you guarantee not to have any compression in your bass sound is if you:

1. Don't go through the PA
2. Use a transistor amp (not class D) with the input gain well below the level at which the clip light comes on and still plenty of clean extra volume available on the master volume control.
3. Don't have any overdrive/distortion/fuzz effects.
4. Don't use any digital effects.
5. Don't use a wireless system.

6. Don't use Speakers at a volume that you can hear them on stage lol

[Jack]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 11:51, Al Krow said:

 

Maybe a bit of sidetrack - but that is a really interesting insight, thanks. But how far does it go? Is the natural valve compression what gives them their "magic" vs SS, I was kinda assuming that there would be a fair bit more to it than that?

If it is a 'key' part of that additional valve magic, I would be an immediate convert to compression for sure. (And that is before all the other benefits of a more centred and even sound, rounding out filter spikes and cab protection etc).

Coming back to my original Q in terms of 'when?' are we therefore tying in the more widespread use of compressor pedals to the demise of valve amps and the rise of SS  A/B and subsequently D class amps? If so mid 1990s?

Just to be controversial (unlike me right?  ) It's interesting that there have been no (or at least very few) new world class rock bands emerging since the mid / late 1990s. Just a coincidence of course.  

To put it simply, the 'sound' of tube amps is essentially harmonic distortion and some natural compression yes, but the 'magic' of tube amps is the way in which those factors interact with each other and the player.

 

According to Wikipedia, Linkin Park and The Who have both sold ~100 million records. 

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[discreet]

27 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said:

...don't assume that 'pros' somehow know a standard way of doing things 'properly' that everyone else is excluded from. Everyone does things their own way, and plenty of folks who pay their way from playing are fairly clueless about the technical side of things....

So true. Given good songs and playing, a pro band is going to sound good because they have a pro crew, pro engineer, pro producer, etc. etc.

[51m0n]

1 hour ago, Jus Lukin said:

Just sticking to the OP, I think that like any other musical tool, bass players have been using comp pedals live ever since they could. If it was available, someone was using it or trying it out.

It's becoming a bit of a bugbear of mine, but also, don't assume that 'pros' somehow know a standard way of doing things 'properly' that everyone else is excluded from. Everyone does things their own way, and plenty of folks who pay their way from playing are fairly clueless about the technical side of things. The amount of world-class singers who don't even know how to get a mic into a channel strip blows my mind sometimes! 

Hmmmm there was a case on here a while ago of a pro signing up to tell everyone not to use a compressor live because pros don't, seem to remember there was some fairly robust disagreement which he didn't like and he left. Those who disagreed were then rounded upon for not being nicer to him. Personally I think if it can be done someone will do it, and if they are clever enough about it it will sound good, and then other people will try (Tom Morello's kill switch springs to mind, never heard that before, then everyone with a heavy distortion and a guitar was adding a kill switch or breaking their pickup selector switch :D).

When I was learning sound engineering the one rule we had drummed into us was "There are no rules, just guidelines, any rule there is is there to be broken, if it sounds good, it is good"....

Of course if you go too crazy in a studio you might just fry some very expensive kit (as in mortgage your house type expensive), so you best have a good idea of what you are plugging in to where before you start getting all 'creative'

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Skol303]

On 10/12/2017 at 22:49, Al Krow said:

...interesting you put it in those terms, 'cos what you're implying is that if you're a sufficiently competent player you won't need to use a compressor?

This isn't aimed at you at all... but that kind of thinking with regards to compressors and bass guitars needs to be taken out back, shot at close range and buried in a shallow grave for the birds to pick at.

 

PS: 51m0n! Nice to see you on here mate  

Edited December 12, 2017 by Skol303

[Al Krow]

10 minutes ago, Skol303 said:

...  buried in a shallow grave for the birds to pick at.

Provided they are Black Crowes, or of the corvid family more generally, I'd be fine with that. Housemartins, Eagles, Yardbirds (well actually most Byrds too) all good. I could certainly live with Dixie Chicks or a Flock of Seagulls and might even stretch to an Albatross from Fleetwood.

Pigeons, however, no. 

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow re world class bands from 90s onwards, I forgot to mention The Atomic Bitchwax and you cannot forget Monster Truck or Robot Lords of Tokyo,  but I concede you may have a point.

Not many people beat Kings X

[51m0n]

16 hours ago, Skol303 said:

PS: 51m0n! Nice to see you on here mate  

Awwww cheers, I've been super busy for a while  so don't have the time to daub huge ponitifications about compression any more, seems like the debate remains as fresh as ever though

[Osiris]

15 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Provided they are Black Crowes, or of the corvid family more generally, I'd be fine with that. Housemartins, Eagles, Yardbirds (well actually most Byrds too) all good. I could certainly live with Dixie Chicks or a Flock of Seagulls and might even stretch to an Albatross from Fleetwood.

Pigeons, however, no. 

It's good to see you publicly embracing your inner Bill Oddie 

Maybe you could change your user name to Owl Crow in homage to the great man?

 

PS - you forgot Freebird.  

[silverfoxnik]

One of my big bug bears over the years is the sometimes lazy, very generic treatment of the bass by soundmen at gigs that I've played at - or been to as a punter -and often, the biggest sin is that they compress the life out of the bass in the overall mix.

That's not to say that I haven't hear great bass sounds in live & studio settings, or used compression myself and liked it -I have!

But sometimes I think compression is used as a rather blunt tool by engineers who, if I didn't know better, I would swear were guitarists in disguise...?

[51m0n]

Lazy engineering is lazy engineering.

Getting a mix to balance live is full of variables though and sometimes, just sometimes a heavily compressed bass is the best the acoustic of the room can support at 'war' volume. Its not always a lazy engineer, they may have tried everything else first.

Admittedly at the level most of us play at they probably havent given the bass more than a couple of seconds thought in the mix, you're lucky if they have sympathetically eq'ed the bass and kick to work together rather than fight each other to be honest.

But thats why I have great gear, run my own PA and always do a soundcheck (even if its only  10 minutes)

[Lozz196]

I`ve found that adding a compressor to my signal chain really messes it up, but then I use the Tech 21 Para Driver and have a good bit of gain/drive. The manual says that the pedal adds compression so separate compressors not required. Must admit, when I had my Ampeg PF500 it sounded much better with a touch of the on-board compressor.

[Al Krow]

24 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I`ve found that adding a compressor to my signal chain really messes it up, but then I use the Tech 21 Para Driver and have a good bit of gain/drive. The manual says that the pedal adds compression so separate compressors not required. Must admit, when I had my Ampeg PF500 it sounded much better with a touch of the on-board compressor.

I agree. I suspect a lot of folk who like what their "compressors" are doing are actually liking the tonal colour that is being added e.g. a number of my BC mates will swear by a Cali 76 (which adds a fair bit of tonal colour) but find a transparent Aggie TLC "does nothing for them", because it is so transparent.

I know you are getting all the tonal colour you want / need from the combination of your P Bass, Ashdown amp and Para Driver and from the YouTube clip you posted on another thread, frankly it sounds great! I really don't know what a compressor would add to your bass in the mix? My big single Nord pups + decent amp and cab do the same for me in terms of tonal colour and then if I want to spice things up well there are a host of funky / dirty / octave pedals I can add to the mix. I'm not looking for a compressor to be another source to tonal colour; I'd just want it to be a decent compressor. And if it's "doing nothing" as a transparent separate pedal in a pub gig environment then what's the point: we can take it or more likely leave it as @chris_b commented earlier.

Even if such attitudes are likely to get those expressing such views shot and buried in shallow graves  

I know that some of us are happy to dismiss what pro-bass or semi-pro bass players do because they are not 'expert' sound engineers. But actually many of them are fuc*ing amazing bass players and a darned sight better than I'll ever be, so if they are regularly using compression pedals to enhance the sound of their basses in the mix then I, for one, would be really interested to know - I'm still not too old to learn from my younger and betters!

 

[discreet]

8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I suspect a lot of folk who like what their "compressors" are doing are actually liking the tonal colour that is being added...

Yes. I don't need a compressor for 'remedial' reasons, but I like the Diamond bass compressor because it instantly makes a bass sound big, fat and lush.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 1, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Al Krow]

27 minutes ago, discreet said:

Yes. I don't need a compressor for 'remedial' reasons, but I like the Diamond bass compressor because it instantly makes a bass sound big, fat and lush.

Out of interest, what is your signal chain in terms of bass / pups (passive of active EQ), amp and cab (and pedals)?

Is there something about them that isn't making your bass sound big, fat and lush? Or are you saying that the Diamond will potentially provide that 'extra' sparkle for any signal chain?

Edited December 13, 2017 by Al Krow