Live bands compress bass - since when?!

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, chris_b said:

There you go again. Making assumptions!

Haha Chris - you're very welcome to disagree with the assumption!

And if the assumption is indeed incorrect or not one that bass manufacturers buy into, then that would obviously be a good reason for them not bothering to include a one knob compressor in the pre-amp.

[Dood]

32 minutes ago, krispn said:

Let’s face it compression live is like wearing a belt with your trousers. Generally most folks don’t need a belt, trousers on their own work just fine but some of us like to feel everthing just tightened up a little, be it a security thing or you just feel better in a belt. Will anyone know you’re wearing one or will anyone really care. That’s unlikely!

Now if the soundman is the tailor he’s always gonna recommend a belt. “Yes yes sir you might not feel the need but trust me sir It’ll tie the whole look together!”

Now some tailors might suggest braces but generally they’re overkill unless you want the effect too. 

"Bra and Suspenders too sir?"

"Multiband compression..."

[krispn]

“Ooh Suits you sir!’

[chris_b]

21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Haha Chris - you're very welcome to disagree with the assumption!

Not disagreeing, but certainly questioning the assumption!

I know there a some bass players who use compression pedals but 99% of the guys I see don't use any pedals at all, so I'd guess there isn't a general need for compression to be added to the manufacturing cost of most amps, which are likely to be built to a pretty competitive price point as it is.

If a list were made for facilities to be added to an amp, my vote would be for an HPF. These are already starting to appear. IMO compression is probably better off staying in the pedal market.  YMMV

[Cuzzie]

18 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Not disagreeing, but certainly questioning the assumption!

I know there a some bass players who use compression pedals but 99% of the guys I see don't use any pedals at all, so I'd guess there isn't a general need for compression to be added to the manufacturing cost of most amps, which are likely to be built to a pretty competitive price point as it is.

If a list were made for facilities to be added to an amp, my vote would be for an HPF. These are already starting to appear. IMO compression is probably better off staying in the pedal market.  YMMV

Compression on amp - yes why not and some very good amps have them inbuilt, compression onboard a bass - cant see the point at all.

If it was that easy to get a tiny unit it would be done by now, Orifin  Effects took a fair amount of time to miniaturise the Urei1176.  About it the smallest I have seen is the TC Spectracomp - maybe just rout a hole and stick it in and it’s job done?!

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, krispn said:

Let’s face it compression live is like wearing a belt with your trousers. Generally most folks don’t need a belt, trousers on their own work just fine but some of us like to feel everthing just tightened up a little, be it a security thing or you just feel better in a belt. Will anyone know you’re wearing one or will anyone really care. That’s unlikely!

Now if the soundman is the tailor he’s always gonna recommend a belt. “Yes yes sir you might not feel the need but trust me sir It’ll tie the whole look together!”

Now some tailors might suggest braces but generally they’re overkill unless you want the effect too. 

Very nice analogy btw - IMO fits Chris B's hpf suggestion even better! 

And with an hpf, when the boominess is gone from your stage set, they would both notice and care!

Edited January 6, 2020 by Al Krow

[StickyDBRmf]

I use a compressor because I like the sound! My first one (which I miss dearly) was in a 80's Roland Bass PreAmp SIP-300. (just youtubed it, optical). Not for any reason to wrangle my sound in, a sound effect in-and-of-itself. Think Tony Levin on K.C. Discipline. And yes I play the Stick. And that one is the Dan Armstrong Orange Squeezer. It has ONE KNOB 

[SpondonBassed]

3 hours ago, Dood said:

I tinker with bass gear

Ahem!

Guitarists tinker, bassists make better.

[51m0n]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Dredging up an old thread simply 'cos I've got a Q that's bugging me!

Assuming that compression is a valuable additional tool to improving sound, then:

Why don't bass manufacturers incorporate a compressor into their on-board preamps? If it noticeably improves sound then you would have thought that some bright spark somewhere would have had the gumption to include - and at the very least to give them a bit of a marketing edge?

I get that budget bass manufacturers won't want to bother, but there are plenty of basses in the £750k+ price range and a comp circuit shouldn't cost more than £25 to add I would have thought?

You aren't seriously asking this?

Flippant answer, as has been proved on here countless times almost all bassists are not capable of dialing in a compressor to save their lives, and don't really know what they are for anyway. They are the devils work.

Given that, why put one in a bass, its at least one, maybe two more batteries to do well, and where are you going to put the metering required to do it properly also (another battery for the 16 leds).

Or are you seriously suggesting a 1 knob monstrosity? Cos they virtually all sound like utter shite anyway given they cant be set up right for the bassist.

Another point though is that there is almost certainly no string to electronic signal transducer (pickup) that is absolutely linear. So the pickups are almost certainly already compressing (because expansion seems incredibly unlikely) the signal to a degree anyway.

Kind of like using a ribbon mic to record metallic percussion, the ribbon is too heavy to be fast enough to perfectly capture the transient, so it in fact works like a rather splendid physical compressor/limiter. As used on all the Michael Jackson recordings by the legend Bruce Swedien...

 

[51m0n]

2 hours ago, chris_b said:

Not disagreeing, but certainly questioning the assumption!

I know there a some bass players who use compression pedals but 99% of the guys I see don't use any pedals at all, so I'd guess there isn't a general need for compression to be added to the manufacturing cost of most amps, which are likely to be built to a pretty competitive price point as it is.

If a list were made for facilities to be added to an amp, my vote would be for an HPF. These are already starting to appear. IMO compression is probably better off staying in the pedal market.  YMMV

Which doesn't mean that their bass signal is not compressed by the way.

If they have a tube preamp and they are pushing it to 'warm it up' (hate that expression but you know where this is going) they are compressing their signal. If they are pushing theoir cabs hard then they are compressing their signal. If the band is loud, then your ears are compressing the signal.

And we are supposing they arent going through a PA at all, which if they are, then chances are very very high that their signal is being compressed.

[51m0n]

Jeez, if we get into the physics behind the strings they are physical compressors too, since they do not get louder linearly with the input by any means, over a certain amount you have to really really dig in to get more volume from a string even acoustically, ask a double bassist!

All an electronic compressor is is another way to achieve control over transient to note relative volume ratios to achieve differing effects which may or may not improve the audibility of the instrument within the mix.

[StickyDBRmf]

The Flux Capacitor works really well on Stick

[krispn]

Can we appeal to the mods better nature to close this thread now before 51m0n has a melt down 

[StickyDBRmf]

Bass players that take themselves seriously. Oooh, good name for a band

[krispn]

Just a thought you could use the inlay dots as the metering lights...

I’ve gone too far!

[Al Krow]

Just now, krispn said:

Just a thought you could use the inlay dots as the metering lights...

I’ve gone too far!

Now there's a thought! 😂

[steve-bbb]

On 14/12/2017 at 12:55, discreet said:

OK, this thread is making my warts bleed and I'm going to unfollow it for the good of my mental health. I don't like using a bass compressor pedal live. That is all! Enjoy going round in circles for the rest of the day folks, I've got stuff to do!

@discreet i know you unfollowed but i just thought id tag you to see how your warts are doing

[51m0n]

4 hours ago, Dood said:

"Bra and Suspenders too sir?"

"Multiband compression..."

Always thought you were a bit of a lumberjack...

 

Nudge nudge, wink, wink...

[Cuzzie]

I’m still at work now......

Say no more!

[Dood]

Zombie threads, it seems, often have trouble coming to life again, but this one has kicked off its shoes and gone for a paddle in the crazy sea. I love it!

[Al Krow]

16 hours ago, 51m0n said:

You aren't seriously asking this?

Yup, I was. And apparently it's been a question that's been on far greater bass minds than my own - haha! 

20 hours ago, Dood said:

Hmm! Well, it's funny as it's something that crossed my mind many times over the years, but I never actually got round to doing anything about it (you know I tinker with bass gear!) 

[Al Krow]

18 hours ago, chris_b said:

Not disagreeing, but certainly questioning the assumption!

I know there a some bass players who use compression pedals but 99% of the guys I see don't use any pedals at all, so I'd guess there isn't a general need for compression to be added to the manufacturing cost of most amps, which are likely to be built to a pretty competitive price point as it is.

If a list were made for facilities to be added to an amp, my vote would be for an HPF. These are already starting to appear. IMO compression is probably better off staying in the pedal market.  YMMV

Chris - 100% agree that an hpf would a nice addition to any amp. There are a few on the market that already provide and it seems to add a lot e.g. Mesa D800+ vs Mesa D800 (no hpf).

But my question here was much more that if compression makes such an important difference to bass tone in a band mix - and I've no issue with that assumption being challenged - why don't bass manufacturers do something at least rudimentary in the form of a one knob compressor on the on-board bass pre-amp on the bass itself. (I'm not talking about the actual amps here). It would set their basses apart and potentially give them a marketing edge.

You've seen a LOT of bass players over the years, I'm sure, and if 99% are not using compression pedals that is an interesting fact which I will mentally note. The active BC'ers who comment on compression all tend to be compression pedal users but they aren't necessarily representative of bass players more generally. 

[Bassfinger]

I use a compressor pedal live.  I don't run much in the way of levels, but it's there.  For me it's the audio equivalent of firing a sniper rifle instead of a long bow.

[Al Krow]

@51m0n do you have a pic somewhere showing an uncompressed and a 'decently' (i.e. something you would approve of!) compressed bass signal side by side, showing the impact of compression and where it is hitting the transients etc.? I suspect that might be a very useful summary of what this topic is all about!

[51m0n]

19 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@51m0n do you have a pic somewhere showing an uncompressed and a 'decently' (i.e. something you would approve of!) compressed bass signal side by side, showing the impact of compression and where it is hitting the transients etc.? I suspect that might be a very useful summary of what this topic is all about!

Not handy at the moment, but I'll see if I can get something together, might take a little while.

The trouble is, what is 'decently compressed', its different for every player, in context with the kit they are using and the track they are playing on. Obviously there is no right or wrong answer, its what works in that context to achieve the desired result. And note that the term 'desired result' may be different based upon the perception of the person listening/mixing too.

Furthermore its really difficult to graphically represent well, simply because the changes can be over a few milliseconds to get an appreciable psycho-acoustic difference within a mix, that is to say uncovering a previously masked part of a bass sound (or a percussion sound) that was up until then masked by another sound, but the note in question may be half a second long. That makes for an enormously large picture, with an incredibly small change. Or you could be crushing the crap out of the whole thing a la Sledgehammer, or you could be doing something all the time to mirror the way a tube amp can tamp down level all the time a little.

Al, if you really want to learn and understand about compression, stop playing bass for a mo, start learning to mix. That is where compression is meaningful, and only trying to learn compression as it might apply to bass is like learning to drive a car only understanding the concepts of going faster, and turning left, on a bicycle...

Its a ridiculously nuanced thing, mixing, and the trick is to get everything to be emotive as a whole. This isn't some kitsch hippy crap either, a good mix differs from a bad mix in its ability to stir the listener. Its not about the listener being able to hear that you held a transient on a bass down to allow the transient of the kick drum to always be louder effectively tightening up the rhythm section. But doing that may be the difference between a more or less emotive mix. A favourite piece of wisdom for me is that a great mix cannot make a crap song good, but a crap mix can make a great song stink.

There are no number of pictures of waveforms and envelopes of bass notes compressed verses uncompressed that can adequately describe the difference between a good use of compression and a bad one. It doesn't work like that.