Ibanez GSR205 New Body Shape Finished FOR GOOD THIS TIME!!

[Grangur]

Nice for a fretless fingerboard.

[Jimothey]

9 minutes ago, Grangur said:

Nice for a fretless fingerboard.

I agree it would look nice fretless 

I’m kinda hoping that with the white ebony veneer the finished look would be a bit like this??? (Obviously switching the light for dark and visa-versa)

[SpondonBassed]

You will have less risk of nasty spores in the sawdust with that.

It looks really nice.  I'd be considering whether I could afford it on the back as well as the top.

[Jimothey]

42 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

You will have less risk of nasty spores in the sawdust with that.

It looks really nice.  I'd be considering whether I could afford it on the back as well as the top.

It’s really not that expensive as it’s paper backed manufactured veneer, it works out to be about £15 for a 1250mm x 310mm roll and £25 for a 2500mm x 310mm roll 

I didn’t know whether to veneer the back or have Sapele on the back then pine (technically it’ll be Redwood which is lighter than pine and slightly higher on the Janka scale) then veneered on the front?? 

Im rethinking the body because I’m not overly happy with the jutty out neck pocket (pictured on the previous page) I would prefer it to flow a bit more which would mean stretching the body slightly at the bridge end but 50mm which I still think would look ok proportionally 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Jimothey

[Andyjr1515]

14 hours ago, Jimothey said:

I’m kinda hoping that with the white ebony veneer the finished look would be a bit like this??? (Obviously switching the light for dark and visa-versa)

Theoretically yes - but don't forget that you will only be able to achieve a very limited curvature at the top horn (because it is essentially circular - and the veneer has limited bending, very limited in terms of double curvature) you would end with a thinner and shorter strip than on the above example.  Same goes for the edges - they will curve round to an extent, but again not as much as the above. 

This is an example of a similar grain pattern on a bass did a few years back - but it is essentially flat-topped, including the horn.  There is a fender-type arm relief, but that is a single curvature, which works fine.  It's the double curvatures that are problematic.  So yes - the white ebony could look great - but veneering a cylindrical top horn, even partially, is going to be - at best - "challenging" :

Edited April 2, 2018 by Andyjr1515

[Jabba_the_gut]

1 hour ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Theoretically yes - but don't forget that you will only be able to achieve a very limited curvature at the top horn (because it is essentially circular - and the veneer has limited bending, very limited in terms of double curvature) you would end with a thinner and shorter strip than on the above example.  Same goes for the edges - they will curve round to an extent, but again not as much as the above. 

Agree with Andy @Andyjr1515 on this especially with that top horn being so rounded. Most guitar tops tend to be around 5mm+ in thickness whereas the veneer will be typically 0.6mm which gives you very little to work with for a rounded edge.

The semi hollow bass I made recently is sapele with a spalted beech top and very rounded edges like that Corvette. The top I used was 10mm thick to achieve that effect.

Cheers

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Jabba_the_gut

[Jimothey]

Thanks @Andyjr1515 and @Jabba_the_gut I figured that I wouldn’t be able to bend the veneered around all the corners so my plan is (I’m not quite sure if it will work) looking at the picture of the veneer the lighter colour in it looks to be quite a close match to the Pine I’m using and if it does match quite nicely then I’ll cut the body shape out do the arm relief then with the edges still square veneer the top then round over the edges, so then hopefully it will kind of blend into the body as such 

I will need to do some tests first to see if there will be any colour difference between the two when I apply the finish which will probably be Hardglaze

Or failing that I might just leave it as a flat top........

[Grangur]

+1 to all the above points by @Andyjr1515 and @Jabba_the_gut 

Also, don't overlook the aging of the wood. When lacquered the pine will go a honey colour. What will the ebony do?

TBH, IMHO, IME if you're using veneers keep the top as flat as possible. If you don't the grain will separate and split. Don't rely on the woods looking the same, because they won't. Have an edge and accept the difference. Maybe even have a pine body, a dark veneer and then top it with the white ebony. This will give you a dark line between the 2 light colour woods.

[Jimothey]

1 hour ago, Grangur said:

+1 to all the above points by @Andyjr1515 and @Jabba_the_gut 

Also, don't overlook the aging of the wood. When lacquered the pine will go a honey colour. What will the ebony do?

TBH, IMHO, IME if you're using veneers keep the top as flat as possible. If you don't the grain will separate and split. Don't rely on the woods looking the same, because they won't. Have an edge and accept the difference. Maybe even have a pine body, a dark veneer and then top it with the white ebony. This will give you a dark line between the 2 light colour woods.

I think TBH I’m being a bit optimistic that it will work and look nice

I didn’t really want it to be a flat top, the reason why I’m doing it that shape is because I like the rounded look

I think I’m either going to go for a pine back with sapele front (which is 15mm thick) so I will be able to round it off no problems or buy a proper drop top??

Or the final alternative is to paint it instead.........

[T-Bay]

I had the pleasure of seeing a guy (ex jaguar) redo the veneer on my old Dolomite dash a few years ago. It was pure art watching him at work. As with all the best craftsmen he made it look incredibly easy, even the sections around the clocks. I had a go myself and tried to do the air vent holes (double curvature obviously), after three or four wasted sheets I was back at Derek’s door getting it done properly. On a flattish surface it’s a joy to do, once you start to get that double curve it’s the work of the devil and if you look closely at most veneered stuff it’s either a single curve, or you can see the cuts and tucks when you really look. I have seen a couple of dashboards painted to look like veneer that were impressive, and one that had a transfer applied (water dip process) that was plain amazing,  ot sure how that would work on a bass though.

[Andyjr1515]

As I said above, an arm relief bend isn't a problem - even though it's going diagonally across the grain:

Most veneers are remarkably flexible considering they are 0.6mm thick.  But - it's the double curvature that's the challenge

[Jimothey]

4 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

As I said above, an arm relief bend isn't a problem - even though it's going diagonally across the grain:

Most veneers are remarkably flexible considering they are 0.6mm thick.  But - it's the double curvature that's the challenge

Yeah the arm relief wasn’t going to be an major issue but as you say the double curvature is the biggest problem and probably way beyond my skills 

I’ve searched the web and I can’t find any videos or even descriptions on how to veneer a double curvature so instead of wasting money by f*****g it up I think I’ll do something else with it but I can’t decide what as yet.......

[SpondonBassed]

6 hours ago, Jimothey said:

I’ve searched the web and I can’t find any videos or even descriptions on how to veneer a double curvature

This might help in your search for ideas.

Caution:  It will only be of help if you are a boffin or you are friendly with someone who boffs big-time.

[Jimothey]

4 hours ago, SpondonBassed said:

This might help in your search for ideas.

Caution:  It will only be of help if you are a boffin or you are friendly with someone who boffs big-time.

Thanks but I think that’s taking it a bit too far anyway it’s a bit easier if you just use a wallpaper steamer and a length of soil pipe with some end caps on.....

[SpondonBassed]

40 minutes ago, Jimothey said:

Thanks but I think that’s taking it a bit too far anyway it’s a bit easier if you just use a wallpaper steamer and a length of soil pipe with some end caps on.....

Not as many geek points to be earned doing it that way though, eh?

[Jimothey]

2 hours ago, SpondonBassed said:

Not as many geek points to be earned doing it that way though, eh?

Fair point!!

[Andyjr1515]

I'm not sure I'd abandon the idea, @Jimothey - it's more about taking steps to increase the chances of success and modifying expectations of how close you can get.

I can't remember how much of the iron-on approach to veneering I've gone through recently, but once the bulk is on and attached, I then ease the edges round - using the hot iron as the shaper - as far as they will comfortably go and stick by using the iron to deform the veneer and then hold down with a cloth very firmly until the melted PVA has cooled and gripped.

Some veneers are better at this than others because some will split more than others.

Then, when I've bent it round all the edges as far as it will go, I then trim around the glue line and finally sand round the glue line.

So my cautionary note is simply that the strip of veneer on the top horn will be thinner than on the example you show, because that is a wooden top sanded round and not a veneer.  But you will be able to get it to curve part way round.  The less extreme the curve, the more it will curve round.  So, if you went for an oval carve on the horn rather than a cylindrical carve, then the veneer will cover more of the horn.

Does that make any sense?

The veneer itself generally isn't that expensive, so worst case is that you have to scrape it off.  That's pretty easy - you just heat it up with an iron to soften the glue and use a decorator's scraper - if you use the right kind of PVA, this is completely repeatable in terms of re-melting and cooling.  Then you've simply need to sand off the PVA residue and you are back to where you were.

 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Andyjr1515

[Grangur]

@Andyjr1515 have you tried damping the wood too, when heating it?  In factories bending wood for arms and backs of chairs, they bend the wood, slowly, by steaming it.

[Andyjr1515]

31 minutes ago, Grangur said:

@Andyjr1515 have you tried damping the wood too, when heating it?  In factories bending wood for arms and backs of chairs, they bend the wood, slowly, by steaming it.

It can help to sprink some fine water spray on the veneer just before you form it, although it is immediately dry once the iron gets to it.  Also, the way I do it (coat both surfaces with PVA, let dry, iron on) i find I also have to lightly dampen the back of the veneer as I apply the PVA to the front to counteract the curling  (sometimes severe)from the dampness of the glue making one side of the veneer expand.

At the E Midlands bash in May I'm going to be doing a live demo of veneering a body.  It's straightforward once you've sorted the tips and techniques - but there are a few tips and techniques to be learned...

[Jimothey]

@Andyjr1515 I don’t know if the pics will make sense, but I was going to do more of an oval anyway I’ve tried to show where the edges will be rounded off 

The line I’ve drawn just over half way up is ideally where I would want the veneer to finish using your technique do you think that’s possible or is that too far down the body to bend it? 

I’m going to recut the body as I want to stretch the body by 50mm at the bridge end so I don’t have to have a jutty out bit (very technical wording!?! ) for the bulk of the neck pocket? 

I was hoping to come to the E Midlands bass bash but unfortunately with my new job I’ve got to work every weekend!!

[Jimothey]

The new body is going to be sapele on the back and I haven’t decided if I’m going to use pine or I’ve found a supplier of paulownia for a very reasonable price 

Here’s the sapele for the back

[Andyjr1515]

It's hard to say @Jimothey , but I would have thought the best you could do for the adhered join line is somewhere here:

 

Only way of knowing is to try it.  If I get time later, I'll have a go at veneering this old Yamaha neck - it'll be about the same radius:

I'll do it at an angle to the grain to simulate the angle your top horn would be at...

[Jimothey]

21 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

It's hard to say @Jimothey , but I would have thought the best you could do for the adhered join line is somewhere here:

 

Only way of knowing is to try it.  If I get time later, I'll have a go at veneering this old Yamaha neck - it'll be about the same radius:

I'll do it at an angle to the grain to simulate the angle your top horn would be at...

Cheers mate if you don’t mind that would be great thanks

[Andyjr1515]

No time like the present.  Quick reminder how I do it while I'm waiting for the glue to set.

Ignoring the stuff at the back of my hastily cleared workbench, this is my veneering kit (plus an iron, of course):

Basically: a sponge roller and tray (DIY in the gloss paint brushes, etc area); a water spritzer (superdrug, etc travel atomiser); Evostick PVA wood adhesive (green bottle - not the blue waterproof type)

 

I roll an even and thin but complete coating of PVA on the veneer (bit of offcut I used for stain trials):

See it already starting to curl like crazy from the differential expansion.  A light water spritz on the back and it flattens by itself:

Then a light even covering of PVA on the neck:

Then wait 1/2hr or so for that glue to dry while I type this up and look for the iron I am allowed to use...

[Andyjr1515]

Well - that was interesting.  It should be said that I used one of the more forgiving veneers - myrtle.  Although quite figured, the grain is multi-directional which has advantages on something like this.

This is the iron I use - it's an old heat-shrink iron that I find nice and small and easy to hold - but any household iron will work (the smaller and lighter the better).  Steam irons should be used completely dry doing it the way I do.

Basically, I heat it until the glue melts and then press down with a cloth (or chamois in this case) long enough for the melted glue to re-solidify (about 10-15 secs).  I use the iron itself to ease the veneer into shape.  I secured the heel first:

Then secured the spine of the neck 'cylinder':

Then eased the veneer round the curve - and WOW - look at that!!!:

The 'grain' is in line with the bottom diagonal so the neck is at roughly the correct angle of a typical Warwick horn.

BUT - even though that has bent remarkably well, can you see the split just starting to form at the right hand side?  That's where the neck heel is and that is where the double curvature is. 

Closer up you can see it's basically pulling itself apart:

There would be a similar issue at the spheroidal end of the horn.

So - trimmed straight - this is much better that I would have expected:

But - in that you have to get to the join in the body - it will be the double curvature that will be challenging.  Probably not impossible - but certainly challenging and where a compromise of the amount of wrap over would probably need to be accepted. 

Oh - and at one of the sides of the heel, I spritzed at little bit of moisture - and the differential expansion immediately found all the grain lines and, again, pulled itself apart.

Hope this helps, @Jimothey