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Interesting FRFR story..

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On 25/03/2019 at 20:19, LukeFRC said:

So several years (5!)  back I started asking questions about FRFR systems etc... except I didn't know that, I asked a question about how going into a practice at a church, the bass sound out of the HK DART monitor in front of me was one of the best sounds I had ever had.
And was asking why, I think it was @stevie who pointed out that multiple amps a decent horn and multiband limiting would make a nice sounding bass tone with the payoff being that you would loose a lot of the bottom end. 
Interestingly a local selling group has just posted a couple of these up for sale for pretty cheap. I guess ex-hire. but very cheap. 
Quoted: 105db @1w/1m half space (whatever that means), Max 123db @1m (at 10% THD)
+/- 3db : 80hz - 19kHz
+/- 10db : 60hz - 22kHz

How does their low end compare to something like the QSC K12.2? As in... not on the stats which I can look up, but on how will that feel to use as a  FRFR cab? 


EDIT:
Interestingly looking at the specs for the different settings for the K12.2 looking at a response graph that I found on several US retailers websites, the published specs for the K12.2 is on a "full range" setting which features a big bass boost between 60-100Hz ... DSP towards flat the -10db point is higher about 70Hz...

The 12.2 has Garoua DSP settings ( baked in EQ if you like). The boost between 60-100Hz is probably when used on a pole where there is no help from the floor. The floor adds 3-6dB in the low end depending on who you ask. If you leave it set to that setting, when floor mounted, it may be too boomy. 

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Posted (edited)
On 11/04/2019 at 14:54, jrixn1 said:

My understanding is that the Headrush 112 is very similar to the Alto TS312.  I've used neither, but there were some recent comments here which are favourable to the Alto: 

 

Yes, I've head that too.  Trouble is I've heard some people say the Headrush is a simply a rebadged Alto without the mic pres, and other people say otherwise, that it has actually been retuned with DSP and internal baffling for guitar and bass.  I'm not entirely sure who to believe.

However, this made for interesting viewing.  They seem to prove they are different and the Headrush is louder, warmer and 'thicker' all settings being equal.

 

Edited by Greg Edwards69

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2 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Headrush is louder, warmer and 'thicker' all settings being equal.

Question would be are those desirable qualities in a FRFR speaker - more distortion would sound louder warmer and thicker

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Months on from my purchase of the QSC K12.2 and I am still in a bit of a quandary. As you probably know I am using bass > Fishman Platinum Pro preamp > QSC. I was unsure which input to use on the back of the QSC so in the end I emailed Fishman and QSC asking which input / setting I should use. Both came back saying the Fishman should be connected to the QSC at line level so I use input B on the rear of the QSC at line level. Now the volume at line level is absolutely fine for rehearsing with my duo at home, I only have the gain 4 notches up when there are twenty available but I have recently attended two Bass Bashes with the QSC and in that environment it suddenly seems very, very quiet. I realise that it’s dwarfed in such surroundings but reading back through this thread I’ve noticed that some people are going through the QSC at instrument level, this is much louder but I thought it was for directly plugging in passive instruments? Should / could I be using instrument level for more volume or should I stick with the QSC / Fishman advice? Also I’ve tried using the Fishman’s XLR out into the QSC and I just get a hum, again I’m unsure which input setting I should use for this Fishman > QSC XLR connection. Generally I just don’t think I’m getting the volume I feel I ought to be getting when I crank it up when I use line level. The outputs from the Fishman are...

Amp Output:
Level: -∞ to +6dBV
Output Impedance: 1k Ohms

XLR D.I. Output:
Level (pre EQ):  -10 dB relative to input

Level (post EQ): 0 dB relative to input

Output Impedance: 600 Ohms

 

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Posted (edited)
Quote

I only have the gain 4 notches up when there are twenty available

So how loud was it when you turned it up to 20?

Quote

going through the QSC at instrument level, this is much louder but I thought it was for directly plugging in passive instruments

Yes, I also think the instrument/Hi-Z setting is just for directly connecting passive instruments.  The Fishman's output isn't high impedance.

Quote

Should / could I be using instrument level for more volume or should I stick with the QSC / Fishman advice

Try the QSC at mic level (input A).  Start with the QSC gain in the middle, and the Fishman volume control on low.  Adjust the Fishman volume to suit.
 

Edited by jrixn1

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

So how loud was it when you turned it up to 20?

Loud in the house but outside in comparison to traditional amps and cabs it seems quiet to me.

2 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

Try the QSC at mic level (input A).  Start with the QSC gain in the middle, and the Fishman volume control on low.  Adjust the Fishman volume to suit.

Really? I assumed that mic on input A was solely for microphone input?

Thanks for responding btw.

Edited by Frank Blank

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15 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

I assumed that mic on input A was solely for microphone input?

I always took "mic input" to mean any low voltage, low impedance signal, rather than literally only a microphone.  The manual says, for MIC, "Use with directly connected microphones and sources with low-level output."   (BTW I'm a layperson not an expert!)

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4 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

I always took "mic input" to mean any low voltage, low impedance signal, rather than literally only a microphone.  The manual says, for MIC, "Use with directly connected microphones and sources with low-level output."   (BTW I'm a layperson not an expert!)

Layperson also. I think this is it, I suppose I don’t really know what level the output of the Fishman should be considered as. You the Fishman manual gives output info in Ohmns and dB but I cannot translate that into mic, line or whatnow!

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I have an RCF 732A (broadly equivalent to QSC K12.2) and I've used both mic and line level settings when gigging.  Mic level is louder but makes my pre-amp volume control more sensitive (a smaller tweak results in a larger difference in volume).  So I generally use line level unless I need to be really loud.

Just start with the pre-amp volume low to avoid any surprises.  But in general, you're not going to blow out a QSC. Certainly at close quarters your ears will give out before the speaker does!

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17 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

I have an RCF 732A (broadly equivalent to QSC K12.2) and I've used both mic and line level settings when gigging.  Mic level is louder but makes my pre-amp volume control more sensitive (a smaller tweak results in a larger difference in volume).  So I generally use line level unless I need to be really loud.

Just start with the pre-amp volume low to avoid any surprises.  But in general, you're not going to blow out a QSC. Certainly at close quarters your ears will give out before the speaker does!

Sound advice, I have thought about just trying the bass > Fishman through all the inputs I just didn’t have the confidence to do it n case I blew something!

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Posted (edited)

I always use channel B set at Hi-z whether direct in or via my BDI21 with both musicman and jazz basses

Edited by Delberthot
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I use the Fishman Platinum Pro EQ into Channel B set to Hi-Z and the gain centred, plenty loud enough.

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Question, what happens if you plug the bass straight into the QSC on its bass amp setting?  Is that loud enough?

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1 minute ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Question, what happens if you plug the bass straight into the QSC on its bass amp setting?  Is that loud enough?

Absolutely fine - that’s what it was designed for! :)

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59 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Question, what happens if you plug the bass straight into the QSC on its bass amp setting?  Is that loud enough?

Just noticed @CameronJ has already answered, as he says, bass straight in is plenty good. 

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Numpty question here,

I've got an active bass  and use the new zoom B1 Four to have a bit of fun at home with headphones.  I was debating buying a small amp and cab for playing with a guitaris and drummer i.e. something relative affordable like TE Elf with small cab or TC Electroinic 250W with a small cab.

Would I be better off buying an active full range speaker and go straght from the ZOOM B1 four into that? And what would you recommned if the budget is small and I mostly jam in  small setting with a drummer and guitarist (using Kemper Amp).

Cheers

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3 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

What’s a small budget in pounds?

£200-£300, I know its small

 

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28 minutes ago, Dennis1971 said:

Numpty question here,

I've got an active bass  and use the new zoom B1 Four to have a bit of fun at home with headphones.  I was debating buying a small amp and cab for playing with a guitaris and drummer i.e. something relative affordable like TE Elf with small cab or TC Electroinic 250W with a small cab.

Would I be better off buying an active full range speaker and go straght from the ZOOM B1 four into that? And what would you recommned if the budget is small and I mostly jam in  small setting with a drummer and guitarist (using Kemper Amp).

Cheers

Obviously I’m going to say yes to your question but on that budget I think it’ll be difficult to source a decent one. Where are you based @Dennis1971? You are welcome to try mine out. 

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37 minutes ago, Dennis1971 said:

something relative affordable like TE Elf with small cab or TC Electroinic 250W with a small cab.

 

24 minutes ago, Dennis1971 said:

£200-£300, I know its small

New or used?

A Trace Elf is £225 new.  If you went for head/cab, which cab to remain in budget?

As for active speakers - consider RCF 310A, about £300; or RCF 312A, about £340. How loud is your drummer?

Used - you'll get more value from buying used gear, and it's uncommon to find single active speakers for sale second-hand.  In that case, you'll have a larger selection if you go for a head/cab.
Particularly if you don't mind heavier gear, you can get a lot for your £300.
 

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1 hour ago, Frank Blank said:

Obviously I’m going to say yes to your question but on that budget I think it’ll be difficult to source a decent one. Where are you based @Dennis1971? You are welcome to try mine out. 

Just realised you can't see that, I'll open that up. I am near Thame (Oxfordshire) bit far from yours :-)

Thanks for the offer.

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1 hour ago, jrixn1 said:

 

New or used?

A Trace Elf is £225 new.  If you went for head/cab, which cab to remain in budget?

As for active speakers - consider RCF 310A, about £300; or RCF 312A, about £340. How loud is your drummer?

Used - you'll get more value from buying used gear, and it's uncommon to find single active speakers for sale second-hand.  In that case, you'll have a larger selection if you go for a head/cab.
Particularly if you don't mind heavier gear, you can get a lot for your £300.
 

I know it might be a stretch buying a head and cab. I am keeping an eye out second hand and am not in a rush. Using the amp provided in the practice room but it is not my favourite (warwick thing).  I know the older stuff is very affordable but weight is also a deciding factor. Tired of lugging aroudn heavy stuff, I had a Genz Benz Contour which was not a lightweight. Hence looking into the smaller heads with a cab. Cab would primarily stay at home and just take the head to practice room.

Just keeping options open, just got back into playing.

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I managed to pickup a used Headrush FRFR-112 on ebay last week for a good price (£229).  Yet to play it with the band, but I'm positive it'll be fine - sounds great at home so far. One of these, or its (cheaper) sister product the Alto TS312 might be fine for you to jam with a drummer and guitarist.

Don't quote me on it, but you might be able to get away with the smaller Headrush FRFR-108 / Alto TS308. It should be loud enough but might lack depth at volume.

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32 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

I managed to pickup a used Headrush FRFR-112 on ebay last week for a good price (£229).  Yet to play it with the band, but I'm positive it'll be fine - sounds great at home so far. One of these, or its (cheaper) sister product the Alto TS312 might be fine for you to jam with a drummer and guitarist.

Don't quote me on it, but you might be able to get away with the smaller Headrush FRFR-108 / Alto TS308. It should be loud enough but might lack depth at volume.

Greg if you can let me know how you get on with it playing with your band that would be great. Thanks

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2 hours ago, Dennis1971 said:

Greg if you can let me know how you get on with it playing with your band that would be great. Thanks

Of course. Not sure when our next rehearsal is, but I’ll post a report here afterwards. 

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