Interesting FRFR story..

[Delberthot]

Used mine last night and I absolutely love it. In fact, the whole band commented on how much they enjoyed it.

I've had my GK/BF set up so that it is for me to hear meaning that the rest of the band have had to have a monitor mix with my bass in it whereas the sound from this carries across the stage but isn't too loud.

Possibly the first time that I have set my volume at the start of a gig and hadn't touched it during the night.

Need to check my subscription but the GK/BF rig will be up for sale alter on today

[Frank Blank]

1 hour ago, Delberthot said:

Used mine last night and I absolutely love it. In fact, the whole band commented on how much they enjoyed it.

I've had my GK/BF set up so that it is for me to hear meaning that the rest of the band have had to have a monitor mix with my bass in it whereas the sound from this carries across the stage but isn't too loud.

Possibly the first time that I have set my volume at the start of a gig and hadn't touched it during the night.

Need to check my subscription but the GK/BF rig will be up for sale alter on today

Excellent. It’s almost odd how making such a fundamental change to your set up seems to be so easy. I’ve been looking for something like this for years, I suppose the tech has finally caught up with the idea some of us have had for a long time, that  of power/clarity/compact portability and all in one unit. I put my AER amp up for sale in order to fund the K12.2 purchase but I sold a couple of basses (the last of my standard scales) and that paid for the QSC so I was thinking of withdrawing the AER but it’s just sitting in the corner not getting played so it might as well go somewhere it’ll get use, can’t see myself going back to it.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Frank Blank
Fourteen groat

[HazBeen]

So 2 12” FRFRs or a 12” FRFR plus a sub?

[Dood]

22 minutes ago, HazBeen said:

So 2 12” FRFRs or a 12” FRFR plus a sub?

I love the idea of the 12 and a sub after seeing the QSC stack I linked earlier, but I am a total sucker for playing with stereo effects when appropriate (or noodling around) this I’d want two tops. Looks like I’ll need all three units ha ha!!!

[HazBeen]

48 minutes ago, Dood said:

I love the idea of the 12 and a sub after seeing the QSC stack I linked earlier, but I am a total sucker for playing with stereo effects when appropriate (or noodling around) this I’d want two tops. Looks like I’ll need all three units ha ha!!!

I have the same conundrum

[Frank Blank]

I cannot imagine a situation where one would need a sub, certainly not with the K12.2 or, judging by @Bridgehouse‘s experience, with the K10.2 either. I am just trying to get a Punk/Thrash thing together with a few mates so we’ll see how it fairs in a ridiculously loud situation. I’m quietly confident.

[Dood]

51 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

I cannot imagine a situation where one would need a sub, certainly not with the K12.2 or, judging by @Bridgehouse‘s experience, with the K10.2 either. I am just trying to get a Punk/Thrash thing together with a few mates so we’ll see how it fairs in a ridiculously loud situation. I’m quietly confident.

That’d be a great test!

[lemmywinks]

Where does the need for a sub come from? Are you playing huge stages or big rooms with no PA support?

[EBS_freak]

7 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

Where does the need for a sub come from? Are you playing huge stages or big rooms with no PA support?

The last thing you want on stage is a big sub to bleed into your mics and muddy everything up.

[Dood]

1 minute ago, lemmywinks said:

Where does the need for a sub come from? Are you playing huge stages or big rooms with no PA support?

I think this is a very interesting point and something I clearly pointed out and proved to one of my fellow musicians only recently.

Here's my story: We played a venue recently that we knew had a very sensitive sound limiter. A 3 second threshold and all power off. Yes, one of those  We knew it was going to be a tough gig so our usually sensitive drummer even brought an electric kit instead of his usual acoustic kit. I mean sensitive in that he's every bit a professional drummer who knows what kit to bring to what gig and knows it doesn't need leathering for a great sound. Anyway, I digress. The discussion was that as the limiter is set really low we should only take the 12" tops for the PA because the subs would be way too much. (The venue was actually very large). My response was actually no, we'll take both subs. We will go with the fuller sound even if we DID have to play relatively quietly. As it happens, the limiter was so badly configured that I managed to take a selfie video with me talking, right up against the PA speaker which was playing music at a volume just under the limiter's threshold. (yeah, I know, geeky, but we did test both the threshold and the resonant frequency band of the limiter.)

Now, you may be asking, what the actually flibbertyjibbit has this got to do with backline? - It's a common misconception that a sub is always all about booming low end, like some teenager's vauxhall nova with a huge bass speaker slapped in the boot. If your system is set up properly, then you should be able to experience support in the low end that a well selected sub brings. Looking for a description, I'd say 'flat response' all the way down, rather than the hyped pumping lows of say dance music. Let's say 'girth' to your notes rather than attempting to blow your audience towards the back wall. A good option when you have no PA support as an example. 

 

[Dood]

9 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

The last thing you want on stage is a big sub to bleed into your mics and muddy everything up.

Or any sub set up by anyone who doesn't know how to set up a sub for it's destined purpose.

[stingrayPete1977]

I'm trying to get the least amount of stuff on stage, a sub and a pa top or two is the last thing I'd want! 

[Dood]

2 minutes ago, Dood said:

I think this is a very interesting point and something I clearly pointed out and proved to one of my fellow musicians only recently.

Here's my story: We played a venue recently that we knew had a very sensitive sound limiter. A 3 second threshold and all power off. Yes, one of those  We knew it was going to be a tough gig so our usually sensitive drummer even brought an electric kit instead of his usual acoustic kit. I mean sensitive in that he's every bit a professional drummer who knows what kit to bring to what gig and knows it doesn't need leathering for a great sound. Anyway, I digress. The discussion was that as the limiter is set really low we should only take the 12" tops for the PA because the subs would be way too much. (The venue was actually very large). My response was actually no, we'll take both subs. We will go with the fuller sound even if we DID have to play relatively quietly. As it happens, the limiter was so badly configured that I managed to take a selfie video with me talking, right up against the PA speaker which was playing music at a volume just under the limiter's threshold. (yeah, I know, geeky, but we did test both the threshold and the resonant frequency band of the limiter.)

Now, you may be asking, what the actually flibbertyjibbit has this got to do with backline? - It's a common misconception that a sub is always all about booming low end, like some teenager's vauxhall nova with a huge bass speaker slapped in the boot. If your system is set up properly, then you should be able to experience support in the low end that a well selected sub brings. Looking for a description, I'd say 'flat response' all the way down, rather than the hyped pumping lows of say dance music. Let's say 'girth' to your notes rather than attempting to blow your audience towards the back wall. A good option when you have no PA support as an example. 

 

Oh and the gig, I forgot to mention. My hunch was bang on. Having a really nice full sound, our gig delivered the energy in the lows to keep the dance floor busy. - Even if a couple of times in the evening the audience were singing SO loudly, they set the limiter off themselves! 

[Dood]

2 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

I'm trying to get the least amount of stuff on stage, a sub and a pa top or two is the last thing I'd want! 

Likewise! I've no idea why I am even in this conversation as my pairs of subs are in my IEMs! No amps or physical monitors anywhere near me on stage ha ha! No backline, just my little pedal board and my IEM mixer in front of me. I love letting FOH do it's job properly.  

[Owen]

2 hours ago, Dood said:

Or any sub set up by anyone who doesn't know how to set up a sub for it's destined purpose.

I used to resemble that remark a long time ago. Mackie SRM 450 top and SRS something or other 15" sub. I am sure the punters were drowning in extended LF, but I cannot deny it - I was having a great time.

[Dood]

Just now, owen said:

I used to resemble that remark a long time ago. Mackie SRM 450 top and SRS something or other 15" sub. I am sure the punters were drowning in extended LF, but I cannot deny it - I was having a great time.

I too have experimented. Not at a gig mind, a rehearsal. I added our band’s 800W active sub to my 300watt 2x10 set up, but the gain setting actually couldn’t for some reason be dialled back far enough. Every note had the most beautiful low end punch (in the gut) with no distortion at all.. but that was all anyone could hear in the room 😂😂😂😂😂😂 

[lemmywinks]

Sure I get why that would be massively beneficial for FoH - we take our RCF subs to every gig purely because it sounds better irrespective of volume - but for personal monitoring I want something which I can hear clearly, is easy to position and doesn't bleed into drum/vocal mics. 

[Dood]

8 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

Sure I get why that would be massively beneficial for FoH - we take our RCF subs to every gig purely because it sounds better irrespective of volume - but for personal monitoring I want something which I can hear clearly, is easy to position and doesn't bleed into drum/vocal mics. 

I think it is worth adding that although I have clearly said “you can” it doesn’t mean we should ALL the time! It’s not gonna wash at The Dog And Duck! I am sort of specifically talking about much, much larger stages with a higher audience capacity venue. Thought I should add that for clarity before I’m shot down he he  

[stingrayPete1977]

The bigger the stage the less sub I'd want on it. 

 

[Owen]

A sub will provide extended LF goodness which might or might not be a good thing. What it will also do is provide more headroom. Whether more headroom is needed is a point for debate.

[stingrayPete1977]

Surely the whole point of an FRFR setup is that has the full range for your purposes, if you need to add a sub for head room or range then it hasn't got enough usable range and you've bought the wrong kit, when you consider a pair of RCFs can handle front of house for a full band including keys and kick drum for a medium sized venue then a single one as a monitor should cover every gig, anything bigger would require wedges around the stage or in ears. 

[EBS_freak]

3 hours ago, owen said:

A sub will provide extended LF goodness which might or might not be a good thing. What it will also do is provide more headroom. Whether more headroom is needed is a point for debate.

Extended LF does not usually equate to goodness. It usually just means undecipherable mud... especially if the player onstage is in controller of the sub frequencies.

[Owen]

23 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Extended LF does not usually equate to goodness. It usually just means undecipherable mud... especially if the player onstage is in controller of the sub frequencies.

Other than my wife's Christmas cake, my dad's Christmas Trifle and Esther's Banoffee Pie, very little (that I want to discuss in public) makes me happier than extended LF.

Obviously all good things need to be used in moderation and very carefully. I have not always managed this which explains my weight - both physical and tonewise on occasion.

The space proper bottom end needs to breath means that it is impossible to monitor what is hitting the punters between the eyes when you are onstage,  so yes, very careful set up and monitoring is imperative.

BUT, all these things considered - a properly crossed-over sub will take over the heavy lifting from a cab on a pole kind of cab and will increase the headroom for those louder gigs. I am not sitting here saying everyone should get a sub, and in 98% of situations it would be superfluous. But the other 2% are lots of fun

 

[stingrayPete1977]

Oh it's certainly fun for the player and maybe the drummer but might not be good for the overall ensemble. 

 

[paul_c2]

It all depends who the amp is for, doesn't it? If we're considering big stadiums, big FOH sound reinforcement and IEMs for monitoring then you could go complete "Geddy Lee" and not use an amp at all - simply DI the bass, possibly with some effects, and let the FOH worry about how fills the stadium while the others listen in on IEMs.

But if we're talking about a band rehearsal then there is probably no PA (or only needed for the vocals) so the amp is doing the job of the monitor(s) and some kind of suitable volume and balance is needed for the others, and the player, to hear the bass. And if its home practice....then we're at even lower overall power.

Somewhere in between, I suspect, are most people. They aren't playing 10,000 seater stadiums, instead much smaller places, so the bass rig is at least partly adding to the overall sound. And here comes the issue......sub frequencies are non-directional, and sources not close to each other can potentially cancel out entirely, or combine (power alley effect). 

It makes sense in all the above scenarios except the "no sound reinforcement" scenario to let the FOH be doing the relevant sub frequencies. And for the others, personally I've used various amps including a FRFR active speaker with a DI box and unless really small, isn't sufficiently lacking in the lower frequencies to warrant a sub. They tend to be used for sound reinforcement not because the main speakers can't cope with the bass, but because it relieves them of about half the power required for the relevant room's sound reinforcement, thus making the PA system clearer and more manageable. But we're into the several thousand watts area once a PA needs subs, rather than it just being a nice convenience.

And don't start me on why subs have a pole adapter to put the mains onto!!!!!