Powered small bass speaker to use as a monitor

[Al Krow]

Guys,

We're currently using a relatively inexpensive [url="https://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB737GB742&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=ns4AWuyMJsWbgAaIloTgAQ&q=behringer+b+205&oq=behringer+b+205&gs_l=psy-ab.3...17684.21382.0.21873.9.7.2.0.0.0.110.554.6j1.7.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.4.282...0j0i30k1j0i10i30k1j0i8i30k1j0i24k1j0i10i24k1.0.vG9WwWph4vI#imgrc=qnbdTTi98PC-dM:"]Behringer B 205D[/url] (active) monitor for vocals and acoustic guitar. We had a bit of re-positioning of various bits of the PA and amps and cabs at our gig on Saturday night which resulted in a massive improvement to the overall sound with some fairly simple adjustments (in particular eliminated mic feedback and dealt with bass amp 'boominees'), however it's resulted in the drummer no longer being able to easily hear the bass amp!

I'm not proposing to DI the bass through the our PA as we've got enough going through that already (4 vocals, acoustic guitar and sax), but was going to DI straight into the monitor. However the Behringer truly sucks at the low end and will simply be providing farmyard noises throughout the gig if I DI the bass into this little monitor.

We have active PA speakers with (passive) mixer desk.

Any suggestions for a powered (active) small / portable 'bass speaker monitor' (around 5" to 8") that can sit on a mic stand (or I guess can be put on a chair) and easily cope with the low end?

I guess I will need to DI from my bass amp into a 'mini mixer' and combine with the aux out of the main mixer into the 'bass speaker monitor' input if the bass speaker has just one input?

Key thing for us for a monitor is compact / lightweight / portable + good sound.

I've so far come up with the [url="http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/markbass-micromark-50w-1x6-bass-combo-amp"]Markbass Micromark 601[/url] as a possibility, but this has now been discontinued I believe? I would very much welcome your thoughts and suggestions!

Cheers

AK

[Delberthot]

It might seem overkill to some but the Barefaced One10 and GK 500MB amp are used purely as a monitor on stage. I got the top hat thingy put in mine so that I can have it on a regular speaker stand at ear level.

Means that I can have it at a decent level to hear myself but is not overpowering everything else on stage.

Plus I have to say that it is the best sound I think I have ever had - possibly due to being able to hear it so clearly (?)

[yorks5stringer]

Don't Roland do some small powered monitors or a Roland Bass Cube?

[Al Krow]

@Delberthot - agree that would be marvellous, but a BF One10 is a fair bit bigger than I'm looking for. Something 5" to (max) 8" and very compact (as well as being active / powered). I know bass cabs do manage with 5" speakers if they have been properly voiced, but don't know if a powered 5" bass cab speaker exists?

The most compact I've seen that could work is the [url="http://www.bassdirect.co.uk/bass_guitar_specialists/PJB_Double_Four.html"]Phil Jones Double Four (75W)[/url] - anything smaller and / or a tad cheaper?

Just checked and the [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxbd6pzg8kk"]PJB double4 handles a low B[/url](!) I'm impressed.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Al Krow

[obbm]

Have you considered a Buttkicker attached to his throne driven from a power amp or a small bass head?

[url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/fischer_amps_buttkicker_mini_lfe_2_ohm.htm?glp=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIp8O4n_uq1wIV6rDtCh3-AAkjEAQYASABEgIn8_D_BwE"]https://www.thomann.de/gb/fischer_amps_buttkicker_mini_lfe_2_ohm.htm?glp=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIp8O4n_uq1wIV6rDtCh3-AAkjEAQYASABEgIn8_D_BwE[/url]

All tactile and no increase in volume. I use one occasionally and mix my bass and drums through it.

[M@23]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1510005992' post='3403265']
@Delberthot - agree that would be marvellous, but a BF One10 is a fair bit bigger than I'm looking for. Something 5" to (max) 8" and very compact (as well as being active / powered). I know bass cabs do manage with 5" speakers if they have been properly set up, but don't know if a powered 5" bass cab speaker exists.

The most compact I've seen that could work is the [url="http://www.bassdirect.co.uk/bass_guitar_specialists/PJB_Double_Four.html"]Phil Jones Double Four (75W)[/url] - anything smaller and / or a tad cheaper?

Just checked and the [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxbd6pzg8kk"]PJB double4 handles a low B[/url](!) I'm impressed.
[/quote]

The Double 4 does handle a B and sounds great. But it's no where near loud enough to use as a stage monitor.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='M@23' timestamp='1510007281' post='3403276']
The Double 4 does handle a B and sounds great. But it's no where near loud enough to use as a stage monitor.
[/quote]

That's a fair point. For vocals and acoustic guitars through the 50W Behringer is actually fine for our pub gigs, but you're right that 75W for a bass may not cut it - although if it's just for the drummer and adjacent to her then I wonder if that would work? It would be an expensive mistake to get it wrong!

[Dazed]

I have no experience of either product but PJB have a Powered cab, the PB 100 100w and a 250 watt version. http://www.pjbworld.com/product_powered_pb100.html

They also have this new thing the Earbox which is a tiny near field monitor for bass. Might be worth looking into them.
http://www.pjbworld.com/product_earbox.html

There's a PB 100 just appeared in the classifieds too. ( no connection to me )

I have a Double Four and it's a great little amp. Not sure how it would cope with stage volume levels though.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Dazed

[Phil Starr]

In ears?

If that is unacceptable (personally I struggle with feeling isolated from the room with them) then you need to go back to first principles. You need monitoring for both yourself and the drummer, and presumably for the rest of the band? It's not clear what your bass amp is doing in your post. You say it isn't going through the PA so I assume it is loud enough for the audience, if so I'm not sure exactly why the drummer can't hear.

One trick I've used to get the sound levels on stage down is to use a bass amp with the mid/highs up and bass rolled off. Then I DI the flat signal into the PA and with the bass boosted through the PA and the tops cut in mirror image to the on stage sound the audience get a balanced mix. It sounds good on stage too because the bass from the PA is audible. Boosting the mids in particular means the bass is much clearer and you can turn the stage monitor down lower, helped by angling the speaker at your (and drummer's) ears. I used a Hartke Kickback to do this. I gave this up in the end because although I liked it my drummers always liked a lot more trouser flapping bass than me.

Those mini monitors are really only good for vocals. I've got the TC Voicelive version of the B205D and it's no better at bass. You are going to have to go for floor monitors or small PA speakers to get what you want. You could go for both of you using floor monitors, by angling them at your ears you can get the stage levels down and direct the mid/highs at your ears and away from your vocal/instrument mics.

[Happy Jack]

Try a Crazy 8, ideally on an old speaker stand set really low so that it's level with the drummer's ears.

Added bonus, you can use the rest of that pole to attach an LED flood or PAR can to illuminate the (otherwise invisible) drummer.

[Al Krow]

Cheers guys for the further thoughts.

@yorks5stringer - the smallest Roland 100W is I think a 12" cube and weighs in at 37lbs which is in the 'too big' category, unfortunately.

@obbm - I suspect the buttkicker (which is definitely not something I'd come across before) is likely to be too radical a prod in the rear for our lady drummer

@Dazed - the PB100 may well be a good compromise in terms of size and power, that's a good shout. But would going from 70W to 100W make a significant difference? I guess the 30% increase in watts when combined with 2x5" rather than 2x4" (i.e. a further circa 25% increase in cone area) and likely better cone drivers it probably will be noticeably louder.

@Phil Starr - IEM I think maybe something to consider down the line, but with our present set up (and lack of outputs from our little Allen & Heath Zed10 fx mixer!) we're a little way off from that and a decent IEM set up will I suspect not be cheap?

In terms of what we did at the pub gig (and a regular venue for us):
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]- we gave the drummer some dedicated monitoring (she had the B205D adjacent to her drumkit in line with her seat) which meant she didn't need to play quietly to hear what was going on around her (she's often been too loud at rehearsals, albeit on a bigger drum kit, then too quiet at gigs which is the wrong way around!) so the overall balance was a lot better; [/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]- I moved the bass combo (which is not going through our PA) to a raised platform area adjacent to the PA and out from behind me and the mics. EQ: I backed off the lows a little and [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]pushed the [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]upper mids and treble a touch. Seemed to entirely eliminate bass 'boominess'. I did have to increase the volume from the amp for the band to hear it, but this seemed to be fine from an audience perspective. But as the bass combo was now longer next to the drums, our drummer could no longer really make out the bass line, so 3 steps forward and one significant one back![/font][/color]

@Happy Jack - not come across a Crazy 8, can you send me a link please?

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Thinking about this more - I've kinda realised that another very viable and obvious option would have been to NOT to have sold my Promethean 3110 to a fellow BCer earlier this year! Ok fess up - how many of us have moved stuff on and then realised there were really good reasons for having bought the thing in the first place?! Ok that's probably for another thread... [/font][/color]

Edited November 7, 2017 by Al Krow

[Dan Dare]

Coming down in price from PJB, BF et al, the small EBS Session 60 combo (there is a 30 watt version but it may be too low powered for your purposes) is well reviewed and is a kickback designs, so you can hear it easily when it's on the floor. Single 10" driver and light/small.

[Jack]

You don't need a separate mixer, you can just go into the main mixer and not route it through the mains.

[jrixn1]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1510046768' post='3403391']
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]- I moved the bass combo (which is not going through our PA) to a raised platform area adjacent to the PA and out from behind me and the mics. EQ: I backed off the lows a little and [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]pushed the [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]upper mids and treble a touch. Seemed to entirely eliminate bass 'boominess'. [/font][/color]
[/quote]

Perhaps I've misunderstood - but does "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]adjacent to the PA and out from behind me"[/font][/color] mean the bass combo is now at the front of the band, facing forwards (into the audience)? If so, how do you hear it yourself?

Was the previous boominess caused by the placement of the bass amp in the room, or by the mics picking up the bass, or the previous EQ setting?

[Al Krow]

[quote name='jrixn1' timestamp='1510062862' post='3403639']
Perhaps I've misunderstood - but does "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]adjacent to the PA and out from behind me"[/font][/color] mean the bass combo is now at the front of the band, facing forwards (into the audience)? If so, how do you hear it yourself?
[/quote]

I'm adjacent the bass amp and it's easily audible for me, just not the drummer behind her drums.

[quote name='jrixn1' timestamp='1510062862' post='3403639']
Was the previous boominess caused by the placement of the bass amp in the room, or by the mics picking up the bass, or the previous EQ setting?
[/quote]

Probably a mixture - we dealt with all three on Saturday night and the boominess disappeared.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1510046768' post='3403391']
@Happy Jack - not come across a Crazy 8, can you send me a link please?

[/quote]

http://www.barryaudiodesign.com/crazy-8s.html

I believe that a number of firms manufacture these, presumably with small variations?

Fascinating cabs. They have astonishing presence and reproduction for a very limited area ... they will NOT project to the back of a pub or drown out your drummer, but they make my DB sound exactly like itself only much louder. In a band backline + PA support environment, this is hard to beat.

[CameronJ]

There was a crazy 8 for sale here a couple of months ago, in a rather handsome blue sparkle finish. I fear it may have sold though.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1510065902' post='3403678']
[url="http://www.barryaudiodesign.com/crazy-8s.html"]http://www.barryaudi...m/crazy-8s.html[/url]

I believe that a number of firms manufacture these, presumably with small variations? Fascinating cabs. They have astonishing presence and reproduction for a very limited area ... they will NOT project to the back of a pub or drown out your drummer, but they make my DB sound exactly like itself only much louder. In a band backline + PA support environment, this is hard to beat.
[/quote]

I like this suggestion a lot! Two Qs i) what is the power handling capacity of these little beauties? ii) is there a powered cab version = active speaker / monitor?

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='CameronJ' timestamp='1510066082' post='3403679']
There was a crazy 8 for sale here a couple of months ago, in a rather handsome blue sparkle finish. I fear it may have sold though.
[/quote]

Reckon you be right, what with it being me as bought it, squire.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1510069810' post='3403730']
I like this suggestion a lot! Two Qs i) what is the power handling capacity of these little beauties? ii) is there a powered cab version = active speaker / monitor?
[/quote]

i should be in the specs but I'll look later if you like.

ii I have no clue.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1510070204' post='3403740']
i should be in the specs but I'll look later if you like.

ii I have no clue.
[/quote]

I did check the specs but couldn't see anywhere on the website. Hopefully you will have somewhere in your bumf - so yup be great if you could look up. I'm looking at the 1x8 and needs to be able to handle north of 100W to improve on the Phil Jones 2x5 .

But if it's purely passive speaker then I will need to pair up with a TE Elf of similar so starting to be a similar price to the PJB 100 2x5.

[b]Back to the PJB 100[/b]...actually this could be an excellent monitor as it has two independent input channels (it's connectivity is in a different league to the TE Elf), one of which I assume can simply connect to the DI out from my Markbass combo? (And the other from the aux out from the mixer so that B205D is starting to look like a spare part).

And provided it's right next to the drummer 100W output should be fine I would hope.

I think I may have just got to a really neat answer! Cheers folks for your assistance thus far!

Edited November 7, 2017 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

On 07/11/2017 at 08:16, Phil Starr said:

IThose mini monitors are really only good for vocals. I've got the TC Voicelive version of the B205D and it's no better at bass. You are going to have to go for floor monitors or small PA speakers to get what you want. You could go for both of you using floor monitors, by angling them at your ears you can get the stage levels down and direct the mid/highs at your ears and away from your vocal/instrument mics.

The TC Voice Solo looks a bit bigger / heavier and if that's no better at bass - well thanks for the tip off! 

The Berhinger B205D has frequency range kicking off at 95Hz and its slightly bigger brother the B207D only manages 90Hz.

All three are rated 150W, which at least is theoretically going to be better than the PJB 100 (100!W) - but as we all know simple watts doesn't necessarily equate to volume (in the same way as having a 20MP camera doesn't mean you're going to get good low light pictures!)

I couldn't find the PJB 100's frequency handling anywhere on line. I'm guessing it would need to be somewhere nearer 30Hz to 50Hz at the low end to be able cope reasonably well with bass? Anyone have the spec sheets for the PJB 100 to hand?

Edited November 13, 2017 by Al Krow

[TheRev]

Have you checked out the Mike Arnapol MAS16.

Not cheap, but wedge shaped and powered.

 

http://www.masoundworks.com/manage.numo?pid=21&module=shopping_cart&component=catalog

 

[Phil Starr]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

The TC Voice Solo looks a bit bigger / heavier and if that's no better at bass - well thanks for the tip off! 

The Berhinger B205D has frequency range kicking off at 95Hz and its slightly bigger the B207D only manages 90Hz.

All three are rated 150W, which at least is theoretically going to be better than the PJB 100 (100!W) - but as we all know simple watts doesn't necessarily equate to volume (in the same way as having a 20MP camera doesn't mean you're going to get good low light pictures!)

I couldn't find the PJB 100's frequency handling anywhere on line. I'm guessing it would need to be somewhere nearer 30Hz to 50Hz at the low end to be able cope reasonably well with bass? Anyone have the spec sheets for the PJB 100 to hand?

I don't think the cut off frequency should be an issue for a monitor. All the important information about timing etc is carried by the mids and so long as the monitor carries everything above 120Hz I think that'd be fine. In any case the deep bass from your cab is Omni directional so the drummer would hear that. The problem is the speaker handling a lot of bass without distorting. You could use a filter but that makes it complex which won't be the solution you are looking for.

 

One solution did pop up though. DJKit were offering the Wharfedale Titan 8 for little money this week, that's the passive but it occurred to me that the active one at around £180 would maybe do what you want, and it is stand mounted. 119dB spec so it'd drown out the drums if needed and the speakers are electronically protected from mis-use http://www.wharfedalepro.com/product-detail.php?pid=3 

[Al Krow]

Phil - brilliant! Cheers buddy, that looks like just the ticket!