New Zoom B3n vs Old Zoom B3

[Al Krow]

The Zoom B3n came out earlier in the year, as most of you will already be aware. If you're a fan of multi-fx (and that's whole different topic!) it's a great piece of kit which I'm really enjoying having on my pedal board. One of my mates on BC has had a B3 for a few years, which he also rates highly, and we've been discussing whether he should upgrade.

Summary of where we've got to:

• Successor pedals don't always mean an improvement - the Boss OC-2 Octaver is classic example with a lot of folk still preferring it to its successor, the Boss OC-3. In some ways the B3n seems to be a sideways-up evolution:

The B3n does better:

• The B3 has 111 effects to the B3n's 80. [EDIT - however the B3 has been discontinued and new patches for the B3n are being regularly released]
• The B3n has an updated chipset and greater procesing power as compared to the B3 and MS-60B. One of the biggest advantage of the n being 5 simultaneous effects over the B3's 3.
• The B3n got a better interface for live use than the B3 for scrolling through patches (with 3 foot pedals in addition to 3 foot switches = 6 vs "just" 3 foot switches on the B3).

The B3 counters with:

• a DI out which the B3n lacks
• B3 prices seem to have dropped to around £80 to £90 whereas new B3ns are still going for around £170 (with the occasional better deal popping up for both).
• Many of the n's patches look to be limited to 4 editable parameters per effect whereas the B3 offers many effects with more options to configure.

Conclusion
If we were both starting from scratch and looking for a decent multi-fx and had to choose between a second hand B3 at their current prices and a new B3n; we agreed that a second hand B3 really is fantastic value and a LOT of pedal for the money.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Al Krow

[Skybone]

Has anyone had the chance to compare the sound quality between the B3 & B3n yet? That would be an interesting comparison IMO.

Although the Line6 POD HD's had less effects & amp models available, they were certainly better quality than the preceding XT & X3 range, and now the Helix is out, the amp & effects models are better than the HD range.

I had a B3 for a while, and although it was a great piece of kit, I found it a bit too limiting in some respects, the number of effects you could use at any one time being the biggest. If only Zoom would bring out the Bass equivalent of the G5/G5n, that would be great.

[Al Krow]

Interesting question. Assuming that an identical parameter effects patch is set up, then I suspect that a change in sound quality should only arise if the chip set had been upgraded on the B3n? I don't know whether that was the case, although it would have been a reasonable thing to do given that chip technology is the one thing that has been continually improving.

I'm guessing that most folks who had a B3 and have replaced with a B3n don't still have both to A/B although there may be one or two out there between us? But I may have a chance to check this for you at the end of next week as I'm meeting up with another bassist who has a B3 then and if we get a chance we could certainly have a go at A/Bing through the same amp and bass. I think the bigger variable is going to be the effects patches themselves - we would need to get these precisely the same to compare sound quality. I'm guessing that some of the old patches in the B3 have transferred across unchanged to the B3n, so it should be possible to compare.

I'm actually not expecting any or, at most, a marginal change in sound quality between the two pedals and that any such change to normally be swamped by the difference in bass, amps and cabs folk use. But it will be an interesting point to follow up on, now you've raised it!

Edited January 18, 2018 by Al Krow

[DangerDan]

The distortions on the b3n are certainly better than those on the b3.

I never really needed the di on the back of the b3 (might have come in handy in an emergency i guess) so the b3n has everything i need covered, including better switching between patches etc in a live situation.

The b3n is much closer to a one box solution for me, purely because its not as limited in how many effects one can load up, if i had to choose just one it would be the b3n.

[dannybuoy]

Improved chips could mean being able to run more FX, or more complex algorithms, or simply having higher fidelity or less noise.

When it comes to what really matters though, it's all about the software / algorithms running on those chips. I've never tried a B3N but have tried a few of the previous generations and have never been impressed with the distortion or amp models, octave or phasers. Chorus / flange / delay / reverb / filters were pretty good though! The addition of Darkglass models is promising though and shows they are putting more effort in here!

[Skybone]

I am disappointed that the screens are smaller on the B3n than on the B3. That was one of the things I really liked about the B3.

[jimfist]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1504979126' post='3368693']
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]In some ways the B3n seems to be a sideways evolution:[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The B3 has 111 effects to the B3n's 80. Processor and A/D & D/A conversion specs appear to be the same. The biggest advantage of the n being[i][u][b] 5 simultaneous effects[/b][/u][/i] over the B3's 3. Many of the n's patches also look to be limited to 4 editable parameters per effect whereas the B3 offers many effects with more options to configure.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

For the record, the B3n will allow for UP TO 7 fx slots to be used in a patch, pending CPU limits. If you're using just standard effects, you can usually get all 7 slots occupied. Reverbs, amp models, and some dirt pedals can be hogs for memory.

The effects/models in the B3n can either be SINGLE slot items with 4 parameters, or DOUBLE slot items with 8 parameters. Amp models are double slot entities with 8 parameters, as are some of the drive pedals (B7k and Sans Amp BDDI emulations) and special effects.

Zoom also releases new amp, cab and fx models on a regular basis (though sort of slow in coming at the moment for the B3n - the G3n/G5n have had a TON of added items since their inception). Thus, the initial release may seem slim vs. the oder B3, but one would think that Zoom is far from finished adding items to the B3n since the amount of cpu dedicated to storing models is somewhere around 60% with lots of room to grow. They still haven't added any GK stuff yet, which you'd have to believe is in the works, knowing Zoom's history.

Zoom clearly concentrated on improving the quality of the amp, cab, and drive algorithms with a ground-up re-coding of all their modeling, and IMHO they are all improved - especially the drives, amp & cab sims. Zoom also wanted to improve switching and navigating the pedal, and they've done this. For my taste, even this is a bit of a limited improvement, but it is certainly a huge leap forward vs. the B3 switching tap dance (drove me nuts....hated it).

you can read more spec info for yourselves via download manuals from this page link:

[url="https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/guitar-bass-effects/bass/b3n-multi-effects-processor#downloads"]https://www.zoom.co....essor#downloads[/url]

[Al Krow]

[quote name='jimfist' timestamp='1505259877' post='3370632']
Zoom clearly concentrated on improving the quality of the amp, cab, and drive algorithms with a ground-up re-coding of all their modeling, and IMHO they are all improved - especially the drives, amp & cab sims. Zoom also wanted to improve switching and navigating the pedal, and they've done this. For my taste, even this is a bit of a limited improvement, but it is certainly a huge leap forward vs. the B3 switching tap dance (drove me nuts....hated it).
[/quote]

Cheers jimfist and as our (technically non!) resident B3/B3n expert (well certainly a lot more expert so than me!) thanks for sharing that. What are your thoughts on the envelope filters in both the B3 and B3n - any improvement in the B3n? And, if so, which of the B3n filter effects / patches do you find yourself using most ?

Edited September 15, 2017 by Al Krow

[jimfist]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1505457121' post='3371978'] Cheers jimfist and as our (technically non!) resident B3/B3n expert (well certainly a lot more expert so than me!) thanks for sharing that. What are your thoughts on the envelope filters in both the B3 and B3n - any improvement in the B3n? And, if so, which of the B3n filter effects / patches do you find yourself using most ? [/quote]

That's a tough one for me. I've never really been much for using anything other than fairly basic envelope filters, and I'd use the effect hardly ever. To that end, the limited number of envelope filters work fine. However, I am a bigger fan of the blending in a touch of auto bass wah (BassA-Wah) with some mild overdrive to give the tone some movement, depending on how hard I dig in with my playing. With a lighter touch, the damped wah effect adds a hint of low growl, and when I dig in it gets more aggressive and abrasive. I seem to be able to get more mileage out of this as a more subtle filter effect.

IMO, there could be more envelope filters, and maybe ZOOM eventually offers more for upload. I guess, though, that you could also throw in the Synth effects into the equation as they can certainly also do envelope synth effects, which can be blended with the dry tone to good effect. For this, the Z-Syn is very cool.

Apologies. Wish I could be of more help.

[Elfrasho]

Anyone else got any insight into this? I'm currently awaiting delivery of a b3n, and looking forward to it! I'll b able to a/b it against my ms60b but to be honest I find it really difficult to hear slight nuances when it comes to tone so i think I'd quite like to hear other points of view.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Elfrasho' timestamp='1509218564' post='3397423']
to be honest I find it really difficult to hear slight nuances when it comes to tone.
[/quote]me too, I think a lot of it is in the mind, spend £170 on a new pedal, you're bound to think it's better, in the short term at least

[Al Krow]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1509220039' post='3397432']
me too, I think a lot of it is in the mind, spend £170 on a new pedal, you're bound to think it's better, in the short term at least
[/quote]

Lol! That's not the point of B3n. Besides I believe he's just picked his B3n up in the effects FS for much less than the new price

Elfrasho - if you are going to be using your multi-fx pedal live you will find the B3n is in different league in terms of ease of use to the MS-60B (which is great in its own way - don't get me wrong - I'm about to get another one to replace one I moved on a few months back) and a pleasure to use for gigging or rehearsals. It's probably the (or at least in the top two) best bass multi-fx available for < £250 currently available. Enjoy!

[Elfrasho]

I'm just taking a punt on the b3n. The ms60b I use is perfect for my use, to my ears the preamps sound good enough. The only 'effect' I tend to use is the octaver so even if I change over to the b3n, it'll barely get stomped on... Well apart from tuning.

I'd prefer there to be some audible difference but if not, not a big deal. Although on talkbass the consensus seems to be the dirt has improved... But i agree, that might just be the whole 'I've just splurged some dollar on a new toy so I need to way its great' effect.

[Al Krow]

Ah ok. Well in which case I'm not sure you have necessarily made the right purchase, I am sorry to say

I have not found the octaver sim on the B3n to be very good (it's a bit "warbly" due to latency and does not track that well) - I much prefer the clean tone and tracking on my dedicated analogue octave pedal. You may well find, as others have done that the octave on the MS-60B is actually better than on the B3n. The dirt on the B3n may be better than the MS-60B but this was true before the firmware 2.0 update was released for the MS-60B.

But in terms of usability and creating your own patches, and recording directly from the pedal you will find it a treat. And, having got it for a good value second hand price, you should be able to move it on for little or no loss if you find in three months time it does not add anything to your existing set up.

[Elfrasho]

So I've had an hour play about with the b3n and this is my very non scientific conclusion:


It's built like a rock. Amazed at the quality.

Sound wise, I'm hard pushed to hear an improvement in the preamps. Also, having a svt with cab sim, it seems to take up 3 slots from 7, so all of a sudden one of the benefits of this over an old b3 has been reduced!

The synth effects are improved. I quite like one of the synth effects on my ms60b but it's pretty basic, I seem to have a bit more breadth to play with.

The dirt tones seem to breathe a bit more. Less fizz.


Looper has to be an effect within a patch. Not separate. As far as I can tell.

Octaver is similar to the ms60b, can't tell a huge difference in tone or tracking.

Positive is a master volume.


Positive, you can choose tap tempo or tuner when you hold down the mute button.. My ms60b needs you to choose between the two. I seem to remember the b3 bring the same.




I'll add as I go. It's a mixed bag so far.

[Al Krow]

31 minutes ago, la bam said:

The zoom b3 is much much easier to use using the software.

I had an issue not being able to save a patch to existing patch ie A4 to A4 when using just the box. On the pc it works very very easily and the rename function is much easier to use. 

...the above from another thread which got me thinking: 

@jimfist do you know what the available PC software editor options are available for the B3n and if these are any good to use? 

[jimfist]

GuitarLab software is the only thing I'm aware of offered by ZOOM for the B3n, G3n and G5n.  Honestly, it is a pretty poor effort in terms of editing features. In fact, it's not really an editor in the sense you can create patches within GuitarLab. You can do individual and bulk preset backups, re-order and re-name presets, but primarily GuitarLab is for downloading new amps/cabs/effects onto your pedal, and also updating firmware. Again, weak by today's standards.

Personally, I find all aspects of the Zoom B3n and G5n so simple to use on the pedal itself, I find myself only ever using the GuitarLab software to do occasional backups and upload new items when Zoom makes them available. But that's just me.

An interesting aspect of the software is that it also allows you to completely REMOVE modeled items (amps/cabs/fx) if you so desire. (You can always retrieve them if you want to add them back to your pedal.)  This is an interesting feature in the event that ZOOM eventually offers more amps/cabs/fx for the B3n than the physical memory of the pedal can handle. You can pick and choose what to keep and/or load onto your pedal. That's actually pretty unique in the amp/effects modeling world.

[Faylith]

Hi there, first post:)

I've stalked on this forum for some time, gathered mailnly gear knowledge, and finally i can repay with some bit of information.

I'm currently a B3 user and planning to upgrade to B3n. I went to compare them to GuitarCenter today, A/B'ed them for about a hour, so if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask me!

[PaulWarning]

is it worth upgrading?

[wulf]

From the posts here and the limited amount of extra reading I've done, I think I'm going to stick with my B3 for now. I have found it useful having a built in DI from time to time (saves carrying a separate DI when you aren't expecting to use it) and I like having the looper available all the time rather than (from what Elfrasho wrote last year) having to include it in each patch as an effect.

I would like the option of having more FX at once. My work around is to arrange consecutive patches that share 1-2 effects but swap out key flavours (eg. flanger OR distortion). That said, most of the time I'm using 'invisible' effects like compression or an amp sim and not changing much from song to song; if I wanted a lot more options, I'd probably be upgrading to something more powerful than either B3 model.

Wulf

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, Faylith said:

Hi there, first post:)

I've stalked on this forum for some time, gathered mailnly gear knowledge, and finally i can repay with some bit of information.

I'm currently a B3 user and planning to upgrade to B3n. I went to compare them to GuitarCenter today, A/B'ed them for about a hour, so if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask me!

Welcome to Basschat! 

I'm going to add a couple of additional observations to my initial post above (which are both favourable to the B3n), but please do post a detailed A/B with your thoughts and @PaulWarning's Q is a good one!

Here'w where I'm landing: if I was gigging with the B3n / B3 I'd go for the B3n every time because of its much greater ease of switching between patches (other than the lack of DI out which is a fairly significant omission!). If it was just for home use; then the I'd probably be content to hold onto a B3 and not feel a particular need to upgrade.

[Faylith]

Ease of use:

I read the instruction manual before going to guitar center just a single time, and i didnt have any problem setting the b3n up. Switching patches is much better, as you clearly see what patch you are switching to. Editing effect is also easier, cause you see all parameters at once. When adding or changing an effect, you don't have to scroll through all of them to get the desired one, they are categorized. Only thing that changed to (anyhow) worse, is that you don't see all selected effects at once, and have to scroll through them, but thats easy one-button operation. Worth to mention that springs on footswitches are not as hard as on b3, so they are comfortable for both foot and hand operation. Menu navigation with this pressable knob is as easy as total and global menus from B3. All that ease of use improvements make up for a downside: the PC/Mac software no longer allows editing the patches, only moving and renaming. So all your editing will be on B3n now.
 

Build quality:

B3 had full aluminium housing with only plastic elements at the display section. B3n has almost no plastic on the "dashboard", but instead unit sides are black plastic. Despite that, unit seems as sturdy as B3. The lower plastic footswitches function way better that similar hinged switches on some low end pedals, like behringer. They have the same nice "click" as the upper, chrome-looking footswitches. Parameter knobs are smaller, but click as nice as on B3 and were comfortable to use for me, i have medium sized hands. Displays are of course smaller, but backlight is closer to white.
 

Features:

I'll be short on that one. Tuner works as well as on B3, but displays on screen, not on dedicated LEDs, so visibility is slightly worse. Looper and drum machine are now separate effects to add to the chain, didnt test if you can put in multiple loopers, but i know that only one drum machine can be used at a time. There are 4 variants of looper: stereo/mono and single/dual unit. B3n is missing some features from B3:
- separate balanced XLR out
- usb bus power
- usb audio interface
- possibility to reverse order of effects (to right to left)
- possibility to change dry/wet blend on patch level
- possibility to power it with batteries
But they are some added features too:
- master level knob
- aux input
- possibility to install and remove effects/amps/cabs to the unit
- and up to 7 effects in the chain of course!

Tone:

Compressors seem to be same quality as in B3, didn't notice any difference.

Amp sims... there could be more to choose from. I couldn't get my favorite GK tone, but they are as good as on B3, especially after some tweaking and getting used to.

Overdrives/distortions/fuzzes. I got surprised by those. I tried to get my frequently used Big Muff to sound same as on B3, but it changed drastically. Maybe a little closer to original one, but to my taste worse. In my opinion, darkglass gear make up for that, they sound really good. Tube screamer is pretty much the same. Thanks to the introduction of 2-unit effects, you finally can use distorted channel of MXR DI+. All other effects from this category sounded more harsh, somehow mid-lacking, but i suppose they just need more tweaking and combining with other effects to get good results. Potentially better than on B3. All effects are now having 4 or 8 parameters, so some effects lost the blend control that i am using all the time on B3. Refer to the effect list for more information https://www.zoom.co.jp/sites/default/files/products/downloads/pdfs/E_B3n_FX-list_0.pdf.

Synths didn't change much. They seem to track a little better, but sound pretty much the same.

Sadly i didn't test Octavers.

In my opinion, Reverbs, Choruses, Wahs and Delays sound same as on B3, but i don't use them too often so it's possible i just missed the difference.

They removed the Bit Crusher!

Tone overall seems a bit diffrent. On B3n all preamps/amps and overdrives have a bit larger tonal range, but mid frequencies are somehow less defined. It were a barely noticable difference, something that is rather felt than heard, and is not really easy to describe. I hope that my amp's graphical EQ will be enough to build up the mids. Worth to mention that B3n seems to be more sensitive to the instrument's tone.

Is it worth upgrading?


In my opinion, none of them is better. They are just different units with different purpose. B3n is more tone focused, as you can chain more effects and switch between patches easier. Use it, if you already have external DI-box and USB audio interface (or you don't need them). B3 is all-in-one utility, get it if you are sure that 3 fx slots will be enough for you. In other hand, when i were buying B3, i didnt thing i'll use all 3 slots, and now it turned out that i need much more! And for the tone, i think its a matter of taste, you can guess how it feels to play basing on my review, but i highly recommend trying it out at local musical store, if possible.




Some tips:
- Refer to https://www.zoom.co.jp/sites/default/files/products/downloads/pdfs/E_B3n_FX-power-chart.pdf to check if all effects that you want to use can be selected at once.
- To tighten up your sound and make bass more clear and readable, use the splitter to remove all signal below certain frequency. For my mahogany bass, 100 or 125hz is just fine. It works best for me if put at the front of the chain.
- You can also use splitter to get rid of that hissing, digital sounding high tones from distortions.
- If you're not really good at timing with the looper, you can set it to end after certain time, based on the tempo set on the unit.

Feel free to ask me any questions.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Faylith

[wulf]

I'm a bit late back to the party but that's a wonderfully in-depth comparison. For my purposes, I'm glad I've got the B3 as I find things like having the looper always available and the USB audio interface very useful. Overall, it is a useful reminder to check the specs on what you are actually buying and not rely on the fact that the device has a similar name.

Cheers,

Wulf

[isteen]

I have the smaller MS60B on my pedalboard, and the B3 is my home toy.

I like both a lot, but feel no need to upgrade to B3n

[PaulWarning]

36 minutes ago, isteen said:

I have the smaller MS60B on my pedalboard, and the B3 is my home toy.

I like both a lot, but feel no need to upgrade to B3n

I use a B1on for gigs, smaller, lighter, I don't change it mid song or make adjustments on the fly but the B3 is better for making adjustments just to see what happens, so I guess I'm very similar