Opinions/advice on our bands confederate flags please

[fretmeister]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503328123' post='3357290']
Than you, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm trying to find out.

Les
[/quote]

I don't know if it helps - he gigs mainly between Birmingham and the south coast, but gets a lot of work and plays a lot of festivals. Not sure if he's ever been up to Wigan.

He's damn good though: https://open.spotify.com/album/6L9UkbQxVG3p5AvevFzLHa

[TimR]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503328040' post='3357288']


I'm confused. Are you slagging off Sun readers while at the same time saying they know more about history than you?
[/quote]

No. History is just remembering facts and stories. It doesn't require any intelligence. I'm not slagging anyone off, it's just a story that I'm not particilarly interested in, haven't read and haven't been told.

Seems everyone, so far, on this thread has been told about it in some capacity or another. Don't see anyone who learned about it in school. We certainly didn't cover the American civil war. Most of what we learned was uk insutrial revolution and the war years.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503327349' post='3357276']
Exactly, that's us, We're tacky.
[/quote]

Oh really? Ha ha.

The first one we played at, we laughed so hard during the Trilogy we got asked to leave

[TimR]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1503328201' post='3357292']


Yes , but my point was it was accepted as a rock culture thing and evolved slightly into a more passive thing in certain sub cultures , recent modern events have taken that away and make the dukes of hazard rasict

The Union Jack is hard to interpret , if you see one hanging out a window , do you think EDL or royalist who is proud of multicultural inclusive society
[/quote]

Exactly.

[ambient]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1503327773' post='3357280']


So it's a flag that represents a smaller area of a now United region of the world with a bloody history amongst it's neighbours going back centuries?


[/quote]

The ironic thing is, it's the flag of st George, who was probably Syrian.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503328553' post='3357295']...Don't see anyone who learned about it in school. We certainly didn't cover the American civil war. Most of what we learned was uk insutrial revolution and the war years.
[/quote]

Just lucky, I suppose, but the syllabus covered at my schools was much wider ranging than that (between '58 and '66, Southville Junior and Hampton Grammar...). My siblings had similar schooling, as I remember.

[ambient]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1503328201' post='3357292']


Yes , but my point was it was accepted as a rock culture thing and evolved slightly into a more passive thing in certain sub cultures , recent modern events have taken that away and make the dukes of hazard rasict

The Union Jack is hard to interpret , if you see one hanging out a window , do you think EDL or royalist who is proud of multicultural inclusive society
[/quote]

I tend to think EDL or national front, or a Br*x*ter,

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503319107' post='3357137']

As I stated before we have NEVER had an adverse comment or raised eyebrow about any of it. We do know what the flags about and I'm trying to gauge if our punters see it for anything other than decoration

[/quote]

That doesn't mean you haven't offended anyone though. Well overdue ditching this. Sounds like you have more than enough to create a great atmosphere.

[lojo]

I don't disagree just that people where using it innocently even if ignorant , that privilege is now nullified.

The worlds a mess eh , should be run by bass players

Edit : even if I did disagree I'd not argue with a Union Ref

Edited August 21, 2017 by lojo

[T-Bay]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1503329124' post='3357304']


That doesn't mean you haven't offended anyone though. Well overdue ditching this. Sounds like you have more than enough to create a great atmosphere.
[/quote]
That's a very good point, you also don't know how many people haven't gone to the gig and haven't booked you when they otherwise may have.

[MacDaddy]

If he'd said 'lasso' instead of 'noose'...

[fretmeister]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503328553' post='3357295']
No. History is just remembering facts and stories. It doesn't require any intelligence. I'm not slagging anyone off, it's just a story that I'm not particilarly interested in, haven't read and haven't been told.

Seems everyone, so far, on this thread has been told about it in some capacity or another. Don't see anyone who learned about it in school. We certainly didn't cover the American civil war. Most of what we learned was uk insutrial revolution and the war years.
[/quote]

Told about it? Like a lesson?

Or perhaps buying a book about it? Or being curious about the subject?
Or perhaps attending a different school that did mention it a bit?

All examples of education - whether in conversation, or self improvement - all examples of lessons, just with different ways of delivering the information.

Why are you surprised that others might know about a subject that you are not interested in?

Education isn't limited to what is taught at school!

EDIT - and history is NOT just learning facts and stories. Only someone who hasn't studied it beyond school level would say that.

History is investigating what happened when there are conflicting accounts, and is examining the motives of the people making the decisions, and considering the nature of society and how such events were allowed to take place - like wars, and depressions etc.

It is very far from a simple memory exercise.

I've been helping my daughter with her GCSE history - the question "WHY?" comes up in almost every question. It's not enough to just say WW2 started in 1939. The student has to explain why.

Edited August 21, 2017 by fretmeister

[Les]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1503329124' post='3357304']
That doesn't mean you haven't offended anyone though. Well overdue ditching this. Sounds like you have more than enough to create a great atmosphere.
[/quote]

Quite, and I would hope it's obvious from my opening post that this is exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

Thank you to everyone that's contributed to this. We'll lose the flags henceforth,

I'll probably start another thread to garner opinion on the "Brucie's dead higher or lower didn't he do well" sketch that the drummer and I are plotting for Sunday's beer fest.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1503328201' post='3357292']
Yes , but my point was it was accepted as a rock culture thing and evolved slightly into a more passive thing in certain sub cultures , recent modern events have taken that away and make the dukes of hazard rasict

The Union Jack is hard to interpret , if you see one hanging out a window , do you think EDL or royalist who is proud of multicultural inclusive society
[/quote]

Depends on the location and whether there is a sports event on.

10 miles away there is an estate where stabbings of minorities is a common event. So there I would think EDL

In my village - a few old army men here. Probably just proud to be British - just a noose with it wouldn't allow that interpretation.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503330913' post='3357325']...
I'll probably start another thread to garner opinion on the "Brucie's dead higher or lower didn't he do well" sketch that the drummer and I are plotting for Sunday's beer fest.
[/quote]

[lojo]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503331090' post='3357330']


Depends on the location and whether there is a sports event on.

10 miles away there is an estate where stabbings of minorities is a common event. So there I would think EDL

In my village - a few old army men here. Probably just proud to be British - just a noose with it wouldn't allow that interpretation.
[/quote]

Ha, it can be reversed , I live in a quite English village now but the UKIP candidate lives a few doors up , and from my old days i know plenty of people on estates who are patriotic but not rasict

[Dad3353]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1503333126' post='3357343']... I live in a [b]quite [/b]English village now but the UKIP candidate lives a few doors up...
[/quote]

All is explained.

[oldbass]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503321508' post='3357180']
Relax. It's just a flag. They're not holding a rally and making hate speeches.

What a load of nonsense.
[/quote]

No way is this meant to sound like a troll etc and I'll admit I'm no scholar on the subject but......would you say the same thing re the "Swastika".

Within months of WW2 breaking out the horrendous meaning behind that flag was very soon realised yet the Confederate flag which does to some extent represent the political ideology of the time, and yes of course I'm not trying to make a direct like for like comparison, has been allowed up until now to happily continue in American society with few questions asked.

Now those q's are being put to the test and the answers are coming back thick and fast with it seems only one conclusion. Sounds bout right to me.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503327988' post='3357286']


Somewhat false equivalence there. I don't recall that flag being used a banner to preserve the ability to own another human being.
[/quote]

Erm?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Ireland

You might want to read the part about "The Irish slave trade began to decline after William the Conqueror consolidated control of the English and Welsh coasts around 1080, and was dealt a severe blow when the Kingdom of England, one of its biggest markets, banned slavery in its territory in 1102."

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503330913' post='3357325']
Quite, and I would hope it's obvious from my opening post that this is exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

Thank you to everyone that's contributed to this. We'll lose the flags henceforth,

[/quote]

And I applaud your posting of the question and the manner in which you did it. If more people acted that way there would be a lot less misunderstanding in this world. (Bloody hell, I'm starting to sound like a hippy now man)!

[DJpullchord]

History seems to be written by the victors.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1503334586' post='3357353']
Erm?

[url="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Ireland"]https://en.m.wikiped...very_in_Ireland[/url]

You might want to read the part about "The Irish slave trade began to decline after William the Conqueror consolidated control of the English and Welsh coasts around 1080, and was dealt a severe blow when the Kingdom of England, one of its biggest markets, banned slavery in its territory in 1102."


[/quote]

Well gosh. Happy to be wrong and to learn something.

I promise I shall ignore some examples in this thread and actually read about it (for more than 5 mins) before having an opinion on it.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='DJpullchord' timestamp='1503335812' post='3357361']
History seems to be written by the victors.
[/quote]

So racists are losers?

Seems appropriate to me!

[Ghost_Bass]

The flag has become an icon of the Redneck/white supremacy ideology but it's also associated with all the bad things supported by the confederates in the civil war. Even in the remake of Dukes of Hazzard they did this scene to try to keep General Lee faithfull to the original but detract the characters from the politics/ideology:

[media]http://youtu.be/Us7v8vQpmZg[/media]

Of course they couldn't fully explain why the characters (suposed not connected with the movement) called the car "General Lee" in the first place.

Going back OT, i would stop using the flags, the recent situations are creating a boiling pressure coocker close to explosion, you never know who will come through the pub doors everynight, it could easily lead to a very delicate and unconvenient situation...

[Dad3353]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1503334586' post='3357353']
Erm?

[url="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Ireland"]https://en.m.wikiped...very_in_Ireland[/url]

You might want to read the part about "The Irish slave trade began to decline after William the Conqueror consolidated control of the English and Welsh coasts around 1080, and was dealt a severe blow when the Kingdom of England, one of its biggest markets, banned slavery in its territory in 1102."


[/quote]

... but also that the George Cross flag was not much in use as a national symbol before 1350 or thereabouts.