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Al Krow

BF Gen 4 cabs - not anytime soon but a new BF Amp may be!

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1503512219' post='3358860']
I don't recommend using high pass filters with Barefaced Gen 3 cabs except in two particular circumstances - acoustic/double bassists using variable ones to help with feedback and bassist with very powerful rackmount power amps which run flat to subsonic frequencies (most decent power amps have switchable highpass filters built in). I can understand wanting one with 3012LF based cabs because of how that driver is.

I wouldn't say I'm ignoring everyone because obviously we'd like this amp to be the ideal amp for lots of bassists but the concept is solely mine, I know what I want and I hope I know what a lot of you want (even though you might not realise it). As Henry Ford said "If I'd asked people what they wanted, they'd have said 'faster horses'" A while back we did a poll about amps over on facebook and the variety of opinions on feature sets (and the strength of opinion on them) was remarkable. Just EQ choices alone could have left everyone arguing for days... ;)

Not making an amp would be madness - I spend almost as much time helping our customers with amp buying decisions as I do with cabs but we don't get to sell any of the amps! And I wouldn't want to sell someone else's amp unless I thought it was perfect and was exactly the amp I'd design for me.
[/quote] There's a lot of love on HPF on bass amps over in some bits of talkbass - and the micro thumpinator is well regarded here. I think it's a way of taking the rumble out when playing live without cutting all the bottom end.

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[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1503643673' post='3359838']There's a lot of love on HPF on bass amps over in some bits of talkbass - and the micro thumpinator is well regarded here. I think it's a way of taking the rumble out when playing live without cutting all the bottom end.[/quote]

I like high pass filters for taking out the pointlessly low stuff that just sucks amp power and wastes cone excursion - but if a cab is well designed then it shouldn't need highpassing to remove audible lows that are part of the sound of bass guitar.

I suspect a lot of the popularity of highpass filters is because bassists going tiny with rigs often end up pushing the speakers beyond what they can handle, which messes with the tone. Remove the deepest lows and that lets the cabs work as intended. I think there's also a a technique issues - you are in control of the sounds coming out, if you don't want deep rumble then don't play like that! But that woolliness that can happen, I don't think that's always (or even often) because of the presence of the deepest lows but because making those deepest lows is forcing the woofers to over-excurse and thus their transient response is no longer half as good as it should be.

There aren't many bass amps on the market that let the lowest lows through anyway, almost all have some degree of highpass filtering built in!

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[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1503483801' post='3358556']
Alex, if you ask 10 different basschatters what they want in an amp you'll get 100 different answers and you'll end up making a monstrosity.
[/quote]

[url="https://media.giphy.com/media/l2JdSP4o5EZkTU16o/giphy.gif"]https://media.giphy....TU16o/giphy.gif[/url]
[url="https://media.giphy.com/media/l2JdSP4o5EZkTU16o/giphy.gif"]https://media.giphy....TU16o/giphy.gif[/url]


Edited by fretmeister

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Hmmm...sounds like the Claber Combo[sup]TM[/sup] [sup]Al Krow enterprises[/sup] :) matching amazing amp head to wonderful BF cab could be a real winner then?!

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As I just mentioned in another thread, I'm a real nerd for HPF and compression!

High pass filtering can achieve many things. Speaker protection is part of that, of course. Gaining headroom (pun not intended, but it's staying!) in the pre-amp and/ or power amp is a big use, as is shaping a tighter sound. For example, if you're trying to get an old-school rock sound from a cab with tons of low end, filtering out the lows to where an 8x10 or 4x12 rolls off will be a good start towards that. Getting a strong deep, clean sound can be helped with powerful high passing, as the important lows can be emphasised without the sub-sonics or sub-bass causing issue. The response of a compressor can be helped by the removal of sub-sonics or up to sub-bass- you can compress much more heavily without 'artifacts' if the larger signals you may not need are reduced in the equation.

There is also the fact that many listeners are used to hearing very controlled bass from the recorded music which we are surrounded by, and it can be hard for the ear to make sense of very low frequency content. The real room shaking stuff can also give a false impression of over powering volume, so tidying up that bottom end can make the listening experience much more pleasurable for the average listener.

Like good compression- even more so, perhaps- high pass filtering is super subtle, but very useful in numerous ways. Fairy dust, perhaps, but I'll take a pinch of that stuff if it might help me out at all!

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[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1503661166' post='3360054']... tidying up that bottom end can make the listening experience much more pleasurable for the average listener
[/quote]

"Pleasurable? PLEASURABLE?!! No no no, we want to kill them to death with bass awesomeness!" :P

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1503657141' post='3359999']
I like high pass filters for taking out the pointlessly low stuff that just sucks amp power and wastes cone excursion - but if a cab is well designed then it shouldn't need highpassing to remove audible lows that are part of the sound of bass guitar.

I suspect a lot of the popularity of highpass filters is because bassists going tiny with rigs often end up pushing the speakers beyond what they can handle, which messes with the tone. Remove the deepest lows and that lets the cabs work as intended. I think there's also a a technique issues - you are in control of the sounds coming out, if you don't want deep rumble then don't play like that! But that woolliness that can happen, I don't think that's always (or even often) because of the presence of the deepest lows but because making those deepest lows is forcing the woofers to over-excurse and thus their transient response is no longer half as good as it should be.

There aren't many bass amps on the market that let the lowest lows through anyway, almost all have some degree of highpass filtering built in!
[/quote]

Sounds sensible to me.

I have tested in my home studio about what frequencies I like in bass and, of course, done the same live. In the studio, turns out anything below 50Hz is basically non-essential for my listening pleasure (so low B fundamental and even low E fundamental aren't that important), so I high pass stuff in the studio at 50Hz for bass, as a rule. I really like bass sounds with a boost at 80 - 100Hz, especially Jazz type basses.

Live, too much bass seems to swamp the mids/clarity (of course). The John East preamps need some care with the bass boost, as the higher you turn it, the lower the frequency of boost goes. Some rooms have resonances that can be a problem at anything up to 100Hz, and the Zoom pedal HPF is helpful in those situations. I don't like cutting signal at that frequency, but it has rarely been needed.

Apart from that, the tone is mostly in your hands anyway :D

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1503661606' post='3360058']
"Pleasurable? PLEASURABLE?!! No no no, we want to kill them to death with bass awesomeness!" :P
[/quote]

That's the other option- so long as we're avoiding the middle ground where they evacuate themselves in unison, I'm happy!

Edited by Jus Lukin

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Just some thoughts. . . .

The one question that always comes up is, "How do I get XYZ's sound?" A list of every piece of gear that XYZ has been pictured using then appears. Most of it being irrelevant to the question.

As I understand it pass filtering is a significant part of recording every instrument and filtering at the mastering stage is used to correct mistakes and shape the whole track. This filtering is a critical contribution to every record we've ever heard and to every bass players sound, but hardly gets a mention. If pass filtering is such an important feature in the studio maybe it's time it became an important tool on stage. DSP is coming. . . doesn't that utilize pass filtering.

I hate loose, muddy and uncontrolled bass frequencies. Which is why the Bergs and now BF cabs work so well for me. An HPF can be a means of squeezing a quart into a pint pot but I think it could also be a useful tool and a positive way to influence and improve the balance and presence of the bass on stage.

Yes? No?

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I'd agree. It's a useful tool, assuming, like most tools, you know what you're doing with it, and you understand your signal chain. Like Alex says, often there are HPF filters in there anyway.

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The Puma 900 I run has probably the world's most useless bass boost knob - centred around 30 Hz. However, a smidge of cut makes the sound in many small rooms much better - a sort of ersatz HPF. Boosting there is not that useful IMO though

EDIT: In fact, the more I think about it, it's probably quite a dangerous knob. A noob player looking to get more bass out of a cabinet not designed for it could easily put quite a lot of power through the woofer, if the maxed out that particular knob. Alex will know more about the power tolerances and voltages etc, but I imagine enough low end boost at high power could damage a woofer.

Edited by funkle

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[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1503674551' post='3360242']
The Puma 900 I run has probably the world's most useless bass boost knob - centred around 30 Hz. However, a smidge of cut makes the sound in many small rooms much better - a sort of ersatz HPF. Boosting there is not that useful IMO though

EDIT: In fact, the more I think about it, it's probably quite a dangerous knob. A noob player looking to get more bass out of a cabinet not designed for it could easily put quite a lot of power through the woofer, if the maxed out that particular knob. Alex will know more about the power tolerances and voltages etc, but I imagine enough low end boost at high power could damage a woofer.
[/quote]

I know what you mean about the Puma 900s bass knob - I've just acquired one myself. It does work well as a "boom cut" though. Can sound great dialled up just a little for some reggae/soul/HipHop flavours too.

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Seems to me all you people wanting Alex to include this whistle and that bell are forgetting the two most important items of all. There is not one single amp on the market that makes a good espresso, and there is not one single amp on the market that has a built-in beer-holder. C'mon guys... priorities!

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[quote name='Marty Forrer' timestamp='1504088626' post='3362553']
Seems to me all you people wanting Alex to include this whistle and that bell are forgetting the two most important items of all. There is not one single amp on the market that makes a good espresso, and there is not one single amp on the market that has a built-in beer-holder. C'mon guys... priorities!
[/quote]

Why not a pop out cigarette lighter? Your amp will be incomplete and functionally useless for the working musician without one. All those deep looks of longing across venues ripe with sexual tension will be merely memories without one. Bass players as a species will die out as they won't be able to procreate.

On the other hand, most people who asked for a soda stream will probably be more than happy with a tuner or compressor. Bass players are funny like that...

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[quote name='Wolverinebass' timestamp='1504169056' post='3363058']
Why not a pop out cigarette lighter?
[/quote]
USB output to charge an ipad or phone would actually not be a bad shout... the amount of gigs I have been on where people have forgotten chargers but have a charging cable in the car... (car won't charge an iPad though)

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If they include a compressor on the BF amp, I hope it's of more use than the one on my Ashdown. Plugged it in, connected an air hose, and it took nearly 20 minutes to inflate a tyre. You can get better than that from Halfords, for goodness sake!

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Perhaps a better idea might be to propose a minimum acceptable feature set? Probably more use than a Simpsons style clinic design :D

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[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1504170745' post='3363072']

USB output to charge an ipad or phone would actually not be a bad shout... the amount of gigs I have been on where people have forgotten chargers but have a charging cable in the car... (car won't charge an iPad though)
[/quote]

Ha. I have no option but to +1 this.

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[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1504170745' post='3363072']
USB output to charge an ipad or phone would actually not be a bad shout... the amount of gigs I have been on where people have forgotten chargers but have a charging cable in the car... (car won't charge an iPad though)
[/quote]

Best thing I ever did for gigging was put a £5 USB charger in the power strip on the back of the pa rack.

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My wish list -

A decent tuner - mutable from a footswitch.
Maybe a couple or 3 programmable and foot switchable patch/preset buttons (like on a TC).
Feet that won't slide off the shiny Barefaced cabs and will also clear any handles.
I think an adjustable HPF of some sort to help tame boomy stages/rooms would be useful.
And these 'taste' or 'filter' dials that a few amps have are pretty good for quickly changing the voicing.
Knobs - not sub menus and LCD displays.
Heft - something that doesn't sound weedy like a lot of the class D stuff does. For my purposes it needs some slam available.

Edited by Mudpup

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A very simplistic amp with instrument and pre-amp inputs only, no 'tone' controls, tuner, USB socket and speaker outputs. Then produce a range of pre-amp/foot pedals/plug-in modules for any other requirements.
There could be a pre/power combination as an alternative.

This gives the bassist the ability to add and change as required.

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All I want is an amp that is easy to use, fool proof and sounds so good I'll never want to buy another amp. . . . evarrr

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