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DanFold

MIDI foot keyboard

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Posted (edited)
'Ow do?!

Done as much reading as I can but I physically turn to soup when it comes midi, so any help would be well appreciated!

I have a Korg x5d that my band uses 1 sound in 1 song. We wanna get it in live without getting a pissed mate on stage to play it and inevitably f*** it up.

I have seen the soft step 12 and studiologic mp-113/7 as options, but I need to change octaves without having to press several keys. Never done this before, I struggle playing bass, never mind singing and keyboards at the same time as well!

I have read mixed views on the Behringer FCB1010 have saying no half saying yeah. And that it can be programmed to play whatever notes you want. Not just 1 octave. This would be mint because they are so cheap. If these can trigger continuous notes as well as control my LE Bass, it would be mighty swell.

Also, id like to just hit a pedal and it continually play the note until the next pedal is stamped on.

Confused.com!

Thanks,
Dan. Edited by DanFold

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Not being updated on this stuff, I had to look them up.
Without using time on studying them more closely, I'd like to narrow this down first, as I didn't really understand your post.

I found the Keith McMillen 12 Step had one octave of notes, as had the Studiologic MP-113. Both are sure to be able to transpose up and down one octave, which in case should be quick to do. They would essentially trigger a certain note in the Korg, but might be able to also be used to send whole sequences of notes to it.
The Keith McMillen SoftStep and the Behringer FCB1010 on the other hand do not spawn an octave, and instead just have buttons to trigger whatever they or the Korg are able to. The Behringer is sold as a foot controller for Behringer amps, but might also be able to send MIDI NOTE ON and NOTE OFF data, Idunno.

I found no MP-113/7 and no SoftStep 12, but did not search thoroughly.

Before delving more into this, I'd like to ask you whether you plan on playing a melody yourself (one pedal press per note) or want to trigger existing (as in pre-programmed) note sequences.
In the latter case, do you have any idea as to how you're gonna control the speed of these sequences? After all, you need the sequence to either govern the band's speed or the other way round - it's normally not a great idea to start a song at a certain speed and then the sequence comes in at another speed. :)

As to the board holding notes, equipment like this may be available that can send a NOTE OFF only when the next button is pressed and sends a new NOTE ON, but I would expect the best thing to do is to check whether the X5D has a HOLD function that will hold notes until the next one occurs.

If no-one else chimes in with good knowledge, I'm willing to delve into the subject matter as I have a background in electronic music and might understand some stuff quicker than someone who turns to soup (personally I turn to caesar salad with fruit cake ;) ).

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By mp113/7, I was referring to the two models of the studiologic mp113 and mp117. I also got the Keith McMillan product names mixed up. Sorry about that! See, soup already!

I found with the 12 step and the studiologic (from videos and other people's written experiences) you have to press select for a period of time, then octave or transpose and then if you want to sift up or down. It sounds like I might need to buy some tap dancing shoes with these two products just to shift octave of the keys.

There'll be no pre programmed anything, I want to press the note of 'C' and it play that note on the Korg. BUT hold the note for as long as it lasts so I can prepare to step on the next note with no sound dropping out. be it a single kick drum or a continuous synth string sound. Then the note to change when I press the next note. I thought this may be a feature on a midi foot pedal not the Korg itself. Then be able to just press octave up or down and carry on playing, rather than pressing select, octave up, next note.... I can do it on midi keyboards I have, but finding this in a foot fortmat seems to be rather complicated!

Thanks for you time and effort in responding though!!!


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I don't know if this resembles what you're looking for, but I fiund it interesting and might give it a go myself

http://electronicmelodist.blogspot.co.at/2014/01/one-evening-project-easy-midi-bass.html?m=1

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[quote name='hrnn1234' timestamp='1501953594' post='3348473']
I don't know if this resembles what you're looking for, but I fiund it interesting and might give it a go myself

http://electronicmelodist.blogspot.co.at/2014/01/one-evening-project-easy-midi-bass.html?m=1
[/quote]

Haha I did think about adapting the keyboard and stamping on that, I'll end up stamping too hard!

The more I read I have seen you can get editors for the FCB1010 and the 12 step, I'm struggling to understand if I can program the first 3 pedals to hold notes C A & F, the next two pedals to hold notes E & F but an octave up...

If it all works out well, I'm going to purchase a mellotron to add strings n' what not to our live shows without employing mr pro tools. Hate bands playing to backing tracks. People pay to see us play our tracks live, not along with backing tracks.

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The 12 step doesn't have just one octave, it has 12 keys that can be any you want, each key is assigned in the controller to be whatever. I use it for several songs, and have a bunch of the keys assigned to various chords which cover several octaves.

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[quote name='DanFold' timestamp='1501954881' post='3348484']
The more I read I have seen you can get editors for the FCB1010 and the 12 step, I'm struggling to understand if I can program the first 3 pedals to hold notes C A & F, the next two pedals to hold notes E & F but an octave up...
[/quote]

Yes, like that, that is what I do - I have the first keys, c,c#,d,d# set to chords for the wall, and two other songs further up. Then I have another patch for the background for a blues song.

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Posted (edited)
and they can be set to 'hold' until the next note is played? Thanks for that mate!


Now, the Behringer FCB1010 has some aftermarket software I've seen, can that be programmed the same does anyone know? It's just cheaper and if I don't end up getting a mellotron or something similar, I'm not over spending for gear I don't necessarily need. I'd also need to buy the Kieth McMillen midi expander, the footprint is good but dunno if it's worth paying the extra if the fcb1010 covers my needs.

Thanks again! Edited by DanFold

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Yes, it holds. When I do the wall I also sing and play bass, so I just have to jab the pedals every so often when I want to change chord.

I have the midi expander, it works fine, but I go straight to an iPad, which uses the korg iM1 for everything, so it is just USB.

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[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1501961914' post='3348534']
Yes, it holds. When I do the wall I also sing and play bass, so I just have to jab the pedals every so often when I want to change chord.

I have the midi expander, it works fine, but I go straight to an iPad, which uses the korg iM1 for everything, so it is just USB.
[/quote]


Ace! Perfect. Yeah, the Korg is old, I wish I could get the same sound on an iPad it would be perfect. Thank you very much for that mate!

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I'm pretty sure that the FC1010 is a programme change controller and doesn't play notes. I have a Roland FC300, which doesn't either.

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[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1501963465' post='3348543']
I'm pretty sure that the FC1010 is a programme change controller and doesn't play notes. I have a Roland FC300, which doesn't either.
[/quote]

IIRC it will produce notes if you delve deep into the editing facilities. Have a good look at the manual. What it definitely won't do is to produce a stream of CCs with values on pressing a single foot switch which is one of things I needed mine to do and why I don't have it any more.

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Having had another look, and seeing your follow-up post, I think you do need one of the two that spawn an octave of piano-like keys. Anything else and you'll find yourself having to delve deeply into MIDI knowledge.

I couldn't find any evidence that the Korg has a function it needs for you to be able to press the keys only shortly when the HOLD function is engaged: it also needs to be in monophonic mode, or else the next note will add itself to the previous one rather than replacing it.
I think your best bet is to assume you must hold the key yourself, which is not too hard in an by itself, but it limits your ability to move about.

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Posted (edited)
They're called bass pedals...

I have Roland PK-5A pedals and a couple of synth modules, including a Minitaur ([url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0oZkQ5ayrE"]https://www.youtube....h?v=M0oZkQ5ayrE[/url], [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvgbF7A90tA"]https://www.youtube....h?v=TvgbF7A90tA[/url]).

I've also got a part-built project using some pedals from an organ and a Basyn MIDI kit [url="http://www.basyn.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=5"]http://www.basyn.com...rod&productId=5[/url] Edited by prowla

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[quote name='DanFold' timestamp='1501962760' post='3348539']
Ace! Perfect. Yeah, the Korg is old, I wish I could get the same sound on an iPad it would be perfect.
[/quote]

Are you sure you can't? The X5D has a lot of the sounds for the M1 which is available, plus the iPad has a lot of other synths (and of course samplers).

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Posted (edited)
[quote name='prowla' timestamp='1502485684' post='3351852']
They're called bass pedals...
[/quote]

Accepting you said that in a helpful tone of voice, I'll try and be helpful too:
No, they're not. :P ;)
People just call them that.

"Bass pedals" are the name normally assigned to pedal units with built in sound generators mostly for bass tones - - like the original Moog Taurus - - and as such are complete instruments give or take some borderline cases.
The fact that people often call MIDI pedals "bass pedals" does not turn them into bass pedals.

The OP isn't after one of those, but after playing his existing Korg X5D with MIDI pedals (or MIDI pedalboard or, as the title says, MIDI foot keyboard - which really is more correct than your proposal).
Remember that a pedal set like this is used to trigger any stuff the synth can produce - along the whole frequency range.
People's tendency to use pedals for bass notes only reflects practical needs and/or their limited thinking. Edited by BassTractor

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Posted (edited)
[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1502528269' post='3351984']
Accepting you said that in a helpful tone of voice, I'll try and be helpful too:
No, they're not. :P ;)
People just call them that.

"Bass pedals" are the name normally assigned to pedal units with built in sound generators mostly for bass tones - - like the original Moog Taurus - - and as such are complete instruments give or take some borderline cases.
The fact that people often call MIDI pedals "bass pedals" does not turn them into bass pedals.

The OP isn't after one of those, but after playing his existing Korg X5D with MIDI pedals (or MIDI pedalboard or, as the title says, MIDI foot keyboard - which really is more correct than your proposal).
Remember that a pedal set like this is used to trigger any stuff the synth can produce - along the whole frequency range.
People's tendency to use pedals for bass notes only reflects practical needs and/or their limited thinking.
[/quote]
I beg to differ with your differing with what I said...

The pedals are the switches, not the sound generators.

Think about an electronic organ with bass pedals - they are just remote switches connected by wire to the main circuit and are often detachable.

Roland call the PK-5A a "Dynamic MIDI Pedal", so they use the word pedal.

A quick search gives the definition of pedal as "a foot-operated lever or control for a vehicle, musical instrument, or other mechanism", which is what they are.

In contrast, the word "keyboard" seems to apply to controls which are pressed using the fingers.

Therefore, there cannot be a "foot keyboard", as the terms are contrary: keys are hand operated, pedals are foot operated. A "foot keyboard" is a pedal board.

So, au contraire, it is your limited use of "bass pedals" to define self contained units comprising the pedals and the signal generator (be it Moog, or Dewtron - who preceded them; I used to have a set of them!) which is incorrect.

The separation of the pedals from the sound generator does not stop them being pedals any more than the separation of the keyboard from the sound generator stops it being a keyboard (as is the case with computer keyboards too - right now I am typing using a keyboard which is attached to a computer; well, actually several computers, via a KVM switch).

I take your point that the MIDI bass pedals tend not to be restricted to the bass octaves (eg. the PK-5A can do octaves 0-8), which thereby makes them more versatile and, beyond that, things like the 12-step can be programmed to perform any funciton.

But they are still called bass pedals, like I said.

Here's a wiki reference which defines bass pedals: [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_pedals"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_pedals[/url] Edited by prowla

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Posted (edited)
[quote name='prowla' timestamp='1502610333' post='3352391']
I beg to differ with your differing with what I said...

The pedals are the switches, not the sound generators.

Think about an electronic organ with bass pedals - they are just remote switches connected by wire to the main circuit and are often detachable.

Roland call the PK-5A a "Dynamic MIDI Pedal", so they use the word pedal.

A quick search gives the definition of pedal as "a foot-operated lever or control for a vehicle, musical instrument, or other mechanism", which is what they are.

In contrast, the word "keyboard" seems to apply to controls which are pressed using the fingers.

Therefore, there cannot be a "foot keyboard", as the terms are contrary: keys are hand operated, pedals are foot operated. A "foot keyboard" is a pedal board.

So, au contraire, it is your limited use of "bass pedals" to define self contained units comprising the pedals and the signal generator (be it Moog, or Dewtron - who preceded them; I used to have a set of them!) which is incorrect.

The separation of the pedals from the sound generator does not stop them being pedals any more than the separation of the keyboard from the sound generator stops it being a keyboard (as is the case with computer keyboards too - right now I am typing using a keyboard which is attached to a computer; well, actually several computers, via a KVM switch).

I take your point that the MIDI bass pedals tend not to be restricted to the bass octaves (eg. the PK-5A can do octaves 0-8), which thereby makes them more versatile and, beyond that, things like the 12-step can be programmed to perform any funciton.

But they are still called bass pedals, like I said.

Here's a wiki reference which defines bass pedals: [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_pedals"]https://en.wikipedia...iki/Bass_pedals[/url]
[/quote]


First an apology to BC for the off-topic, not-helping-the-OP, character of these posts, but seeing misinformation spread this way, I've decided to pick up my axe as well.

Secondly, let me play with an open deck, and admit I'm a classical organist/composer who also taught electronic music at music college. This may of course skew my view on the subject matter (and I assume you're going to claim exactly that), but it also makes sure that I in fact know something about this and certainly do not need some flawed WP article to receive my history lesson from.


I'm not going to read that whole WP article, but I did quickly see some remarks there that you (Prowla) may have overlooked and that supported my view:
- "bass pedals" are "an electronic musical instrument" (like for example the Moog Taurus)
- "with foot-operated [i][b]pedal keyboard[/b][/i]" (note the use of the term here - right up me alley!)
- pedalboards that are MIDI controllers .... "are still often referred to as [b][i]bass pedals [/i][/b]" (implying, like I state, that that is wrong).


The word "keyboard" may "seem" to you to imply controls that are pressed by the finger, but that is simply wrong.
There mainly are two types of keyboards:
- keyboards for the hand or hands that are called "manuals",
- keyboards for the foot or feet that are called "pedals". Pedals in this realm are foot keyboards.
Are you starting to get the gist yet?

I am of course aware that many people think that keyboards always are for the hands. This is not so.
I do however see that language changes, and I also believe that we're looking at a future where people's lack of knowledge takes command in this.


Several times in your post you act as if I have something against the use of the word "pedals", whereas in real life I used the term myself several times, and in a correct fashion.
You are correct in that the pedals are the switches (or "keys").
What you are not correct in is assuming that "bass pedals" for "pedalboard" or "MIDI pedals" is also correct. It is not, and has never been. It's just that people who are not into these things have called them "bass pedals" for as long as I can remember, and most probably before that as well.
This is why I stated that the OP's use of "MIDI foot keyboard", though it is unusual and sounds a trifle awkward, is in fact more correct that your proposal "bass pedals".

That exact wrong use of the term is also the historical backdrop that made it easy for the bass synth called Moog Taurus to be called "bass pedals".
Now, I do not personally [i]like[/i] that this instrument is called "bass pedals", but I've grown to accept it, as there is some wisdom in not swimming upstream when you're not a salmon.


Again: pedals are foot keyboards, and no frequency relationship exists other than in practical terms: the feet are less well-equipped for all the fast notes, and thusly it quickly became a historical fact many centuries ago that the feet most oftenly played the bass part. However, thousands of pieces of music exist where the feet in fact play the melody (let's call it the soprano part), and the hands play the rest.


BTW, as a cool little side remark, and a fact not very known outside classical organ circles, the first form of keys on pipe organs were in fact like the stops you see on most mechanical pipe organs: one had to pull them out to get a tone, and push them back in to stop that tone.
Hence, an organ player was a key puller, or a key [b][i]tractor[/i][/b], and this is part of where my login name comes from: I'm a key puller who is trying to pull strings instead.
The English language still provides access to the terminology - amongst others through the verb "to treat" (which now means something else): [i]"Treat your bass with care, lad!"[/i].


This post became much longer than the three lines I'd thought, so I'd better stop right now.
I probably missed a few things, but so be it. Edited by BassTractor

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I accept that the OP was describing a requirement and agree that is the topic in question.

And I'd be checking out the 12-step to fulfil the requirement.

[url="https://www.keithmcmillen.com/products/12-step/"]https://www.keithmcmillen.com/products/12-step/[/url]

...but back to the digression...

Keyboards are for hands and pedalboards are for feet.

It's interesting you refer to organs, as the pedals of organs do seem to be bass notes, whilst the keyboard(s) tend to be full-range; perhaps that is where the term "bass pedals" came into use.

As I said, and in agreement with your comments, the distinction of them being "bass" is now blurred and they can swap over and play higher notes (or trigger sounds, lights or explosions, if you like!); this is really due to the inevitable convergence of technologies.

But playing "outside of the box" is nothing new; the so-called [i]bass[/i] guitar can also play high notes, especially with harmonics, so it's not just bass pedals which have the ability to stretch their role beyond the (ahem) basics.

Incidentally, did you notice that Keith McMillen call their device a "[i]12 Step USB MIDI Bass Pedal Foot Controller[/i]" (in the browser tab title)? It seems that the two leading brands of bass pedals (Roland and Keith McMillen) refer to them as that; you may contend that they are wrong, but the story of King Canute might be a history lesson worth checking out at some point.

I would also say that the comment of mine which you picked up on was "they are called bass pedals" (or something like that); I think that I have given several links to show that they are indeed [i]called[/i] that. Now, you might argue that they are really limb extremity operated actuators, but they are still [i]called [/i]bass pedals[i].[/i]

However, in the interests of fairness, I did a search and I managed to find an image of a foot-keyboard; here it is!

[url="https://youtu.be/0Yu62StlsMY?t=6"]https://youtu.be/0Yu62StlsMY?t=6[/url]

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I don't really want to get involved in your pedantry competition here, but keyboards have intrinsically nothing to do with hands. They are any boards with a key or keys on them regardless whether it is designed for a hand, a foot or a cows nose. I have made many keyboards in various devices to be pressed in many circumstances. I would associate pedals with feet though.

I wouldn't use the term bass pedals myself but if someone said it I would understand what they were talking about, in the way that if someone said they were hoovering, I would understand they meant they were using a vaccum cleaner. I don't use bass pedals live, I use a 12 step which plays chords (which are higher than the notes I am playing on bass). The 12 step is great for that, it wouldn't be as good for bass as say the pedals on an organ, so I would never describe it as that.

But you are right, they do call it a bass pedal in the title, and a foot driven keyboard in the body text (and in the manual).

Interestingly, and I know this from when I was looking originally for the pedals from an organ to butcher and make into a midi controller (and pedals on an organ were bass pedals as they just played the bass), if you search for 'bass pedal' on either eBay or google, you just find pedals (ie, effects pedals) for basses, no keyboard beds at all.

I would also point out that the reason a bass guitar is called a bass guitar is because it is tuned an octave below a guitar. However high (including harmonics) a bass guitar gets, it is still an octave below a guitar, and an analogue to the double bass.

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Back on subject, when it comes to chords, this was my original 'brick in the wall' patch (currently using chordion on the iPad though). This is in Legato mode, where the chord plays until you press another one, or the menu button (the middle one next to the D#)

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[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1502658254' post='3352769']
I don't really want to get involved in your pedantry competition here, but keyboards have intrinsically nothing to do with hands. They are any boards with a key or keys on them regardless whether it is designed for a hand, a foot or a cows nose. I have made many keyboards in various devices to be pressed in many circumstances. I would associate pedals with feet though.

I wouldn't use the term bass pedals myself but if someone said it I would understand what they were talking about, in the way that if someone said they were hoovering, I would understand they meant they were using a vaccum cleaner. I don't use bass pedals live, I use a 12 step which plays chords (which are higher than the notes I am playing on bass). The 12 step is great for that, it wouldn't be as good for bass as say the pedals on an organ, so I would never describe it as that.

But you are right, they do call it a bass pedal in the title, and a foot driven keyboard in the body text (and in the manual).

Interestingly, and I know this from when I was looking originally for the pedals from an organ to butcher and make into a midi controller (and pedals on an organ were bass pedals as they just played the bass), if you search for 'bass pedal' on either eBay or google, you just find pedals (ie, effects pedals) for basses, no keyboard beds at all.

I would also point out that the reason a bass guitar is called a bass guitar is because it is tuned an octave below a guitar. However high (including harmonics) a bass guitar gets, it is still an octave below a guitar, and an analogue to the double bass.
[/quote]
Welcome to the discussion!

The 12-step manual does refer to it as a pedal "[i]This section covers information that will help get started with the 12 Step. We will introduce the 12 Step hardware, the MIDI Expander hardware, how to connect 12 Step to the world, and basic operation of the pedal.[/i]".

I don't see the 12-step being referred to as a keyboard in the online manual ([url="https://files.keithmcmillen.com/downloads/12step/12_Step_Manual_V2.0.pdf"]https://files.keithmcmillen.com/downloads/12step/12_Step_Manual_V2.0.pdf[/url]); it does mention using a computer keyboard and a GUI tool with a "graphical representation of a keyboard". However, it does refer to the pressed notes as "keys".

I've previously had a Ketron set of bass pedals too: [url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/solton_k8_bass_pedal.htm"]https://www.thomann.de/gb/solton_k8_bass_pedal.htm[/url] and I've also got a set of pedals I'm butchering to make a standalone MIDI controller, using the [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Basyn-MIDI-Adapter-for-One-Octave-Bass-Pedals-Midipeds-Free-Shipping-/322624409165?"]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Basyn-MIDI-Adapter-for-One-Octave-Bass-Pedals-Midipeds-Free-Shipping-/322624409165?[/url] kit.

I have to say that I had never registered the term "foot operated keyboard" until this thread and had taken it as someone trying to describe a concept (eg. "like a keyboard but you play it with your feet", such as in this wiki page: [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedal_keyboard"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedal_keyboard[/url]) rather than being the formal name of the unit. And that is how I interpreted the OP.

So, I'm going to drop off the discussion now; I'll continue to refer to them as [b]MIDI bass pedals[/b], but I accept that others may refer to foot keyboards and suchlike.

And finally, back to the OP: I'd still be checking out the KMI 12-Step.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXMy2irFUl4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXMy2irFUl4[/url]

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Posted (edited)
[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1502658254' post='3352769']
I don't really want to get involved in your pedantry competition here, but keyboards have intrinsically nothing to do with hands. They are any boards with a key or keys on them regardless whether it is designed for a hand, a foot or a cows nose. I have made many keyboards in various devices to be pressed in many circumstances. I would associate pedals with feet though.
[/quote]


Aye. The being a prat thing is really the worst part of being a classical organist, hence why I sometimes overplay my jazz side, which makes me cool again - to some limited degree of course. :D ;)

I'm happy you associate pedals with feet, as this is from Latin. :)

Finally I'm more than overjoyed you mentioned the cow nose, as I now see I forgot an important keyboard type when hastily writing my three lines.
So, without mentioning a few less important types of keyboard, we have three types, all derived from Latin:

keyboard for hand(s): [i][b]manual[/b][/i] (from Latin "[i]manus[/i]")
keyboard for foot/feet: [b][i]pedals[/i][/b] (from Latin "[i]pes[/i]")
keyboard for cow's nose / cows' noses: [b]Bos[/b]([b]s[/b])[b] Taurus [i]Nasus[/i][/b]
:D Edited by BassTractor

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[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1502717158' post='3353050']
Aye. The being a prat thing is really the worst part of being a classical organist, hence why I sometimes overplay my jazz side, which makes me cool again - to some limited degree of course. :D ;)

I'm happy you associate pedals with feet, as this is from Latin. :)

Finally I'm more than overjoyed you mentioned the cow nose, as I now see I forgot an important keyboard type when hastily writing my three lines.
So, without mentioning a few less important types of keyboard, we have three types, all derived from Latin:

keyboard for hand(s): [i][b]manual[/b][/i] (from Latin "[i]manus[/i]")
keyboard for foot/feet: [b][i]pedals[/i][/b] (from Latin "[i]pes[/i]")
keyboard for cow's nose / cows' noses: [b]Bos[/b]([b]s[/b])[b] Taurus [i]Nasus[/i][/b]
:D
[/quote]
Hence the Taurus bass pedals!

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[quote name='prowla' timestamp='1502701092' post='3352896']
Welcome to the discussion!

I don't see the 12-step being referred to as a keyboard in the online manual ([url="https://files.keithmcmillen.com/downloads/12step/12_Step_Manual_V2.0.pdf"]https://files.keithm...Manual_V2.0.pdf[/url]); it does mention using a computer keyboard and a GUI tool with a "graphical representation of a keyboard". However, it does refer to the pressed notes as "keys".
[/quote]

Sorry - Its not something I really care that much about, and it clearly is something very important to you, so if you want to refer to them as bass pedals then knock yourself out, I will keep referring to them as midi pedals and we will all be happy.

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