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Al Krow

Vanderkley are better than Barefaced cabs, right?!

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I think the VK will run out of steam on a loud gig. Even the more powerful LNT210 doesn't have the Vd of the BB2 (I think the the LNT210 uses FaitalPro 10FH520's, Vd of each speaker 233 cc's, combined 466 against the BB2's 550) That's not to say the tone of the Vk isn't more to you're liking :)

Edited by MOSCOWBASS

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[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1509698584' post='3400893']

@Osiris - having got Charlie to rearrange the furniture to set things up with three cabs and one amp head and then leaving us be for two hours (and then not even letting us make a token contribution given that we were leaving without actually buying anything), I didn't really have the heart to ask to try out anything else yesterday! But if you fancy a trip down with your GM 800 head well I'm up for a rematch (although it won't be affecting my decision to get a VK 210 which I'm very happy is more than 'good enough' for me). He didn't have a BF ST in stock which would also have been good. I don't know if the BF 210 is anything like the BF one10 which I recently heard chez Grangur and which is a [i]really [/i]nice piece of kit (excellent articulation and portability) and for me would win a BF beauty parade hands down (with design / looks being one of those more 'superficial' factors that unfortunately is a bit of a stumbling block with some BF gear and finishes for some of us, as Wolverinebass mentioned earlier in the thread). So if you're thinking about a BF 210 and had budget I'd be tempted to say have a think about getting two BF one10s instead.

[/quote]

Dragging the Genzler down to the Gallery to test drive the BF Two 10 sounds like a plan to me :)
I've already had the pleasure of playing through a pair of One 10's (albeit without my own basses or amp) and they are just incredible and fully deserve the hype and praise they receive. But I think a single Two 10 would be a better option for me in terms of cost and the fact that I'm not too old and knackered just yet to manage a cab that weighs some 13 Kg or so :lol:

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[quote name='MOSCOWBASS' timestamp='1509704643' post='3400972']
I think the VK will run out of steam on a loud gig...That's not to say the tone of the Vk isn't more to you're liking :)
[/quote]

Wow - how loud are your gigs?!! My 500W Markbass has had plenty of volume and headroom for all my gigs to date where it has been the sole bass amp and bigger venues tend to have FOH / decent PA systems, so I'm struggling to think of when I might need 'louder'?!

I guess if we do end up playing Wembley (likely to be underground station in my case), then the 'expansion plan' is to simply get a second cab so that between them they handle the full 1000W at 4ohms from a Trickfish Bullhead 1K amp head.

[quote name='Osiris' timestamp='1509710913' post='3401081']
...I'm not too old and knackered just yet to manage a cab that weighs some 13 Kg or so :lol:
[/quote]

Despite what these [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/307783-getting-old-and-knackered/"]old and knackered boys are saying[/url], I like you're philosophy better buddy: you're never too old to be young :)

Edited by Al Krow

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I probably shouldn't poke the bear whilst it's sleeping - but what I was getting at was that comparisons at shop volume (SPL) aren't terribly worthwhile and certainly not when you're splitting hairs in a sonic sense. It's like trying to choose between a Porsche and a Ferrari as your trackday car (oh, how the other half live!) and making your purchasing decision based on driving both to the shops, never exceeding 30mph. 😉

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1510168081' post='3404462']
I probably shouldn't poke the bear whilst it's sleeping - but what I was getting at was that comparisons at shop volume (SPL) aren't terribly worthwhile and certainly not when you're splitting hairs in a sonic sense. It's like trying to choose between a Porsche and a Ferrari as your trackday car (oh, how the other half live!) and making your purchasing decision based on driving both to the shops, never exceeding 30mph.
[/quote]

Quite so. It's a shame bass cab manufacturers don't give you 30 days to try their products on a few gigs to see whether you like them.

Oh, wait...

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Balloo is not in hibernation yet

I am just playing with my BareFaced necessities.........

(Sorry - I don’t get out much......)

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I played in a small bar with my 1st gen Barefaced Compact on Sunday. The guitarist was playing through a Fender Pro Junior, so we were not that loud.

There was another bass player there, who the band knew, and we got him up to play on a song. What a sound from that Barefaced cab. Not only was it a great sound but I got that punch in the chest every time he played a note.

I can only imagine how good the newer (and I assume improved) cabs sound.

Edited by gjones

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1510168081' post='3404462']
I probably shouldn't poke the bear whilst it's sleeping - but what I was getting at was that comparisons at shop volume (SPL) aren't terribly worthwhile and certainly not when you're splitting hairs in a sonic sense. It's like trying to choose between a Porsche and a Ferrari as your trackday car (oh, how the other half live!) and making your purchasing decision based on driving both to the shops, never exceeding 30mph. ��
[/quote]

Morning Alex! Balloo replying.

Question: so [i]exactly[/i] how are you proposing that we conduct an A/B of two different cabs in a live gig environment using the same equipment, same song material and with our bands playing at exactly the same volumes with the same three or four tracks being played on repeat for an hour or so, so that we can carefully hear the nuances between the two?! It seems a bit cloud cuckoo land to me (and whilst [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]I do appreciate your enthusiasm for your own product, which is a [/color][/font][i]must, [/i][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]I find myself on occasion face-palming when reading your posts[/color][/font]).

The alternative is to do what I did which is to go into a studio with a trusted mate (who was expecting to prefer BF cabs, as it happens, to keep things as 'unbiased' as possible). It's not perfect, I agree, but at least it's doable. You then combine what you have just heard with your own ears with the feedback from the nearly 60 respondents to this thread, pretty much all of whom [i]have[/i] played their cabs at gig volumes and in my case giving particular weight to folk who have had [i]both[/i] BF and VK cabs. A huge amount of love for both cabs. However, from the respondent posts there is a small but discernible change from BF to VK, for those who have owned both. [i]None[/i] (or at most one) of the respondents have moved in the other direction i.e. swapping their VK for a BF. Consensus is that the 'finish' and the more subjective 'looks' of the VK is preferred to BF, where folks have expressed an opinion on this (and these are often strongly held views).

All of which says I would very probably have been just fine (and probably very happy) with a BF, but equally should find that my recently acquired VK cab will also do me proud.

Edited by Al Krow

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[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1510177134' post='3404537']
There was another bass player there, who the band knew, and we got him up to play on a song. What a sound from that Barefaced cab. Not only was it a great sound but I got that punch in the chest every time he played a note.
[/quote]

I've had that before, when playing a gig with wateroftyne's band. He played through my rig (Markbass LM2 and gen 2 Compact) and I was pleasantly impressed with the sound of the rig (and his playing of course!). If I sound half as good as that then I'm VERY happy with my set-up :D

I'm sure VK cabs are all very lovely an' that, but I have no cab GAS at all and no need to try one. I'm happy about that B)

I also have a TKS H115 that I am equally happy with, but it is a bit more bulky. If I had to keep one and move the other on, it would be the Barefaced cab that stayed.

Edited by Conan

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[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1510221954' post='3404682']Question: so [i]exactly[/i] how are you proposing that we conduct an A/B of two different cabs in a live gig environment using the same equipment, same song material and with our bands playing at exactly the same volumes with the same three or four tracks being played on repeat for an hour or so, so that we can carefully hear the nuances between the two?! It seems a bit cloud cuckoo land to me (and whilst [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]I do appreciate your enthusiasm for your own product, which is a [/color][/font][i]must, [/i][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]I find myself on occasion face-palming when reading your posts[/color][/font]). [/quote]

You don't - you're vanishing down the rabbit hole of gear lunacy. ;-)

This is about gear for creating music. It isn't hi-fi equipment - it isn't about precise AB testing in a quasi but ultimately misguided scientific manner. You use the gear on a gig. You crank it up, you play loud, you see if you get excited more about the music, you feel if your band are playing better because the whole mix is sticking together better. If it's great, buy it, if not try something else. And then get on with playing music.

By the way, if you did want to do AB testing in a quasi-scientific manner, I guarantee that at proper band loudness you would not have to spend hours going back and forth listening for nuances. Loudspeaker non-linearity, dispersion, transient response and so on makes much bigger differences at high SPL - you will hear a clear difference in both sound and feel immediately, especially as you move around the room. And that's my main point - yes, in your Porsche vs Ferrari to the shops test, you might notice that one has more precise steering and one has a smaller turning circle but otherwise they're both fine. But rag both down an empty bendy road so you're frequently on the limit of grip and suddenly they feel TOTALLY different. And the chance of the one you liked most at low speed being the one you like most on the ragged edge is literally 50/50. Same with any bass cabs.

If you do want to wear your physicist hat, then here's when to do it:

1. Remind yourself that loudness vs power is a logarithmic thing, so the difference between 100W and 1000W is a two-fold increase in loudness (if no compression occurs). Then you won't decry those who talk about needing to play louder than you're used to - because they don't need a much more powerful rig because they want to be much louder, they just want to be a bit louder and to be a bit louder needs that much more power.

2. Remind yourself that the scientific method has shown that anecdotal evidence and observer bias are a disaster if you want to get a good appreciation of what's going on, especially when you take such a small snapshot as you have. I'm not going to start shooting down other brands but I know the feedback we get and I know what people are switching from. And if there isn't observer bias in your title then... ;-) Also, if I wasn't keen on the look of something my subconscious would definitely be keen to persuade me it doesn't sound as good - and that subconscious effect manifests itself in wine tasting, snake oil hi-fi gear, and more. The placebo effect is real!

3. Remind yourself that loudspeakers are incredibly inefficient devices and focusing on wattage is missing the point, especially at lower frequencies.

There's more but I'll stop there. I hope you enjoy your new gear enough that you stop thinking about it! ;-)

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1510224823' post='3404707'] I hope you enjoy your new gear enough that you stop thinking about it! ;-)
[/quote]

Excellent point, and that's what I was trying to say in my previous post. B)

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1510168081' post='3404462']
I probably shouldn't poke the bear whilst it's sleeping
[/quote]

Guys - thanks, I have indeed stopped "thinking" about my new cab (which has now been bought) and I do look forward to enjoying it! And if that's your genuine wish then there is no real need to cheekily "poke bears" is there? :D

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[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1510229469' post='3404758']Guys - thanks, I have indeed stopped "thinking" about my new cab (which has now been bought) and I do look forward to enjoying it! And if that's your genuine wish then there is no real need to cheekily "poke bears" is there? :D[/quote]

That is indeed my wish. But now you're done, I'd rather information wasn't left on the internet in perpetuity which may misguide people, hence my interjections to add some clarity.

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1510232194' post='3404814']
That is indeed my wish. But now you're done, I'd rather information wasn't left on the internet in perpetuity which may misguide people, hence my interjections to add some clarity.


[/quote]

Alex - I completely respect your need, right and justification in doing that. False information is no use nor helpful to anyone.

[quote name='Cuzzie' timestamp='1510232618' post='3404826']
In that can I add that I am actually Balloo please, Al your a bit more mowgli
[/quote]

Lol!

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1510232194' post='3404814']


[/quote]

That's possibly the funniest thing I've seen all year :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Osiris said:


That's possibly the funniest thing I've seen all year :lol::lol::lol:


And this is maybe the second funniest (on this thread anyway!)

"I also have a TKS H115 that I am equally happy with, but it is a bit more bulky. If I had to keep one and move the other on, it would be the Barefaced cab that stayed." ...Conan

Conan, seriously GLWTS!

 

Edited by Al Krow
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On 09/11/2017 at 20:29, Al Krow said:

[Conan, seriously, GLWTS!

Guilty as charged! :$ But you didn't include EAD Foundation cabs in your OP!! :heart:

  • Haha 1

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Ok I've decided there's only one way I'm going to satisfactorily resolve this question in my head! 

This is also a salutary warning for anyone foolish enough (like me) to start a gear related thread. It's never going to end well or without GAS! 😂

VK210 LNT and BF SC Gen3.jpg

Edited by Al Krow

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Just to upset everyone:  I bought Vanderkleys and Barefaced cabs at the same time by accident so I had the chance for a back to back comparison. Despite wanting the Vanderkleys to be better I much preferred the BFs.  Then I tried Markbass and the BF went out the door.  My ears, my gear MHO>

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5 hours ago, lownote12 said:

Just to upset everyone:  I bought Vanderkleys and Barefaced cabs at the same time by accident so I had the chance for a back to back comparison. Despite wanting the Vanderkleys to be better I much preferred the BFs.  Then I tried Markbass and the BF went out the door.  My ears, my gear MHO>

That really does just goes to show, right? :)

My starting point was a 12" Markbass cab (in my AC 121 Lite combo) and I'm heading in exactly the opposite direction! 

Be good to hear a bit more about your experience: which of the cabs did you have and what was it about them that led you to you prefering Markbass first, BF second and VK (by the sounds of it a distant) third? 

Out of interest what is the rest of your signal chain in terms of amp, bass and pedals?

Edited by Al Krow

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On 07/10/2018 at 15:50, lownote12 said:

Just to upset everyone:  I bought Vanderkleys and Barefaced cabs at the same time by accident so I had the chance for a back to back comparison. Despite wanting the Vanderkleys to be better I much preferred the BFs.  Then I tried Markbass and the BF went out the door.  My ears, my gear MHO>

Really? I wish I had "accidents" like that.

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On 07/10/2018 at 15:50, lownote12 said:

Just to upset everyone: 

No upset at all.

At this level of bass gear we're talking about preferences, often based on the smallest things, which add up to a decision that goes one way or the other. Making the right choice doesn't make the others bad choices. Markbass often gets forgotten in these conversations, but I've heard some players getting a great sound out of that gear.

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Tin hat well and truly on...for both resurrecting an old thread AND for again asking for opinions...😬😁

Over the last week or so I have been reading a lot of historic threads on here as I've been recently looking at single cab solutions and have found myself looking very closely at both the Barefaced Super Twin and the Vanderkley 210LNT.

I noticed the OP had a similar predicament the last year or so. Both are 'similarly' priced within my budget, albeit the VDK does come in nearly £200 lighter, which if buying new does appeal.

I see the OP's now got both, well, a BF SC rather than ST...and I don't wish to create another thread or stir up a hornets nest about 'opinions' etc., but I was just hoping to pick the brains of the OP, and anyone else, as to thoughts and preferences have the pleasure of owning both.

I currently play in a 'covers' (not tribute, we don't do the whole dressing up nonsense!) to The Who and have both Tech 21 "Leeds" and "VT Bass" pedals to "colour" the sound I'm after depending on what set we're doing, so the whole flatness argument of the BF ST isn't really a concern to me.

Ideally, I was preferring a one cab solution, but I'm open to consideration on 2no. smaller due to the flexibility with the two cabs.

Up my way however, there isn't really much scope to try out a great deal of the higher end cabs, I'm aware BF do the "try before you buy" option, so I might just do that initially.

Obviously 2no. SC's will be more costly than 1no. ST, but I'm also liking the 12 months interest free option too...makes it a less painful hit...!

Jeez, decisions, decisions...it's a never ending cycle, eh...?

Cheers, Dougie.

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Hey Dougie,

My experience:

Barefaced cabs

Interestingly the ST has a very similar frequency response to the SC but both miss out on the 6khz to 20kHz range that can add some high end 'sparkle' to bass tone (particularly if you want to add a bit of slap into the mix).

For that very reason, I'm currently looking to replace my SC with a BB2 and I have my SC listed in the FS section :) 

VK 210 MNT & LNT

So I went initially for the MNT but found it a little too bright with my particular combination of amps and bass pups and ended up trading it for the LNT which for me hits the nail on the head, and would be my recommendation in terms of mix of overall power handling, price and portability.

However it's 43 lbs (and I'm not as young as I used to be) whereas the BB2 is 26lbs or 29lbs, so I'm being a bit extravagant in wanting to have both; although I've so far managed to get all my cabs used and in vgc from fellow BC'ers to keep costs down.

Wider experience:

There's a bunch of very happy ST and SC owners on BC.

One other point - for me the ideal cab size is actually 2 x12: 12" speakers (this is personal view**) provide the best combination of tight sound and great lows. The ST delivers that, as would two SCs and the latter give you the added advantage of being modular for smaller / larger gigs.

 

**although Bill F has, I believe, just broadly confirmed my long held "I'm sure that this must be right but have no real proof" point about speaker size on another thread!

Edited by Al Krow
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