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Al Krow

Vanderkley are better than Barefaced cabs, right?!

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[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1499444306' post='3331645']
Where it comes to low frequency output watts don't matter, driver displacement does. Vanderkley doesn't list it. Barefaced does for most of their lineup, but not for the newer cabs loaded with tens. Alex needs to attend to that.
[/quote]
The new 10s are designated 10cr250. I think the 250 refers to the displacement in cc. I thought I'd read that on his website but couldn't see it after a very brief squizz.

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[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1499542894' post='3332132']
I think the 250 refers to the displacement in cc.
[/quote]I didn't see that, could be. In comparison the Beta 10 that Orange uses in their 410 is 102cc, the Deltalite II 2510 that many manufacturers use is 147cc. 250cc is better than many twelves.

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[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1499552796' post='3332194']
I didn't see that, could be. In comparison the Beta 10 that Orange uses in their 410 is 102cc, the Deltalite II 2510 that many manufacturers use is 147cc. 250cc is better than many twelves.
[/quote]

Hi Bill, I'm going to need to ask you to unpack the whole driver displacement / displacement cc for me please, and what is considered good and not so good and how the Vanderkleys stack up against BFs in this regard? Please feel free to go into as much detail as you feel necessary for someone who is a complete novice on this point! I'm sure a number of my fellow BC'ers will definitely also appreciate a better understanding of this point too.

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You might find some TKS cabs of your liking too. Tommy is also very approachable and can tell you a lot about his cabs, etc. I only have experience of their S112 and the much more powerful 1126, and in both cases I have been very impressed at the quality. The range of finishes is also pretty impressive, which you might like perhaps...

I havent heard that VdK cab. But the Big Twin seems similar to a couple of BigBaby2, which I did own. Personally I prefer my current solution which is a pair of BF Two10. It's a bit more expensive than a BigTwin, but I love their portability and they sound fantastic. I ignored them for some time assuming they had a 'vintage' dark retro type of sound, but they aren't at all.

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[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1499555085' post='3332208']
Hi Bill, I'm going to need to ask you to unpack the whole driver displacement / displacement cc for me please[/quote]It's simple, displacement is the cone area (Sd) multiplied by the linear excursion limit (Xmax). It's just like a car engine bore and stroke, the sum total of which for all the cylinders is the engine displacement, for instance 2000cc. Just like with a car engine the higher the driver displacement the higher the potential output.
[quote]what is considered good and not so good and how the Vanderkleys stack up against BFs in this regard?
[/quote]BF posts the displacement for most of their products, and it's pretty much as good as it gets. Vanderkley, and every other manufacturer that I'm aware of, doesn't post it, though if you know what drivers they use you can figure it out, as the driver manufacturers post it.

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Love the thought and design that go into barefaced cabs, but just can't live with 9mm plywood, i have not heard of many
failures though!.....just me i suppose!

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[quote name='ebenezer' timestamp='1499588194' post='3332304']
Love the thought and design that go into barefaced cabs, but just can't live with 9mm plywood, i have not heard of many
failures though!.....just me i suppose!
[/quote]

Ive had lots of barefaced cabs with no damage. The fact that they're light means you don't have to put as much force into moving them. If I was touring they'd go into a flight case.

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I was really tempted by the BF10s but the ohms seem very strange to me , the 210 being 4ohm and the 410 8 ohm seems the wrong way round?
I tried the vanderkley 410 and it was amazing , incredibly loud for it's weight and very open even sound

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Posted (edited)
[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1499560516' post='3332237']
It's simple, displacement is the cone area (Sd) multiplied by the linear excursion limit (Xmax). It's just like a car engine bore and stroke, the sum total of which for all the cylinders is the engine displacement, for instance 2000cc. Just like with a car engine the higher the driver displacement the higher the potential output. BF posts the displacement for most of their products, and it's pretty much as good as it gets. Vanderkley, and every other manufacturer that I'm aware of, doesn't post it, though if you know what drivers they use you can figure it out, as the driver manufacturers post it.
[/quote]

Thanks for clarifying Bill, particularly with the car engine analogy which really helped!

[quote name='Orbs' timestamp='1499448457' post='3331672']
[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]I've not found my BF cabs to be in any way 'fragile', and they have been used extensively. [/color][/font]
[/quote]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1499464681' post='3331792']
Having had Barefaced cabs - a good few at that - they are far from fragile, more than happy to sit in a boot/van/load-space and rattle around. I always have Roqsolid covers for my cabs of course, but BFs are much harder than they look - maybe the Clark Kent of bass cabs?
[/quote]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1499594580' post='3332362']
Ive had lots of barefaced cabs with no damage. The fact that they're light means you don't have to put as much force into moving them. If I was touring they'd go into a flight case.
[/quote]

Seems that there's a consensus that the BF cabs are not fragile, which is obviously vital. But my band members (who I'm guessing range in weight from 44kg right up to 77kg :)) are quite happy on occasion to perch on my Markbass combo, and I've not batted an eyelid when they've done so. Would you all be as equally relaxed about your heavier band members sitting on the top of your BF cabs? I guess that for me is a reasonable test of strength for the 9mm plywood used in the BF cabs? Edited by Al Krow

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Is this a band from the Shire.....?!

I'm a healthy bass playing 110kg, Al, you need to get your band in training!

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Posted (edited)
[quote name='Cuzzie' timestamp='1499602416' post='3332422']
Is this a band from the Shire.....?!

I'm a healthy bass playing 110kg, Al, you need to get your band in training!
[/quote]

East London is hardly the Shire :)

Cuzz I trust that you are 6'6" to go with that agglomeration of cells you are porting? :) If not, you need to set a better example to your customers!

PS me and Cuzz are used to having a friendly dig at each other. In fact this thread could almost entirely be attributed to his needling me to move on from my tried and tested MB combo and explore the wonderful world of separate amps and cabs... Edited by Al Krow

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If only Bas, I'm a less than elegant 6ft.

I would like to say big boned, but to be fair having played rugby, and stopped now and developed a taste for Cider living in the West Country it's now relaxed muscle waiting to pounce....

Bas buy both with a returns policy and send back the one you don't like!

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[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1499598476' post='3332407']
I guess that for me is a reasonable test of strength for the 9mm plywood used in the BF cabs?
[/quote]It depends on how well it's braced. I specify 12mm in most of my designs, not for strength but for ease of construction, as most DIY builders would find jointing with less than 12mm difficult. However, if you've got the woodworking skills and the design is right you don't even need 9mm. My personal cab is a Jack 12 Lite, built from 3mm and 6mm.

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Agreed, you can sit or stand on the cabs just like any other.
Just out of interest Bill, what does your own Jack lite weigh?

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[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1499598476' post='3332407']
Thanks for clarifying Bill, particularly with the car engine analogy which really helped!







Seems that there's a consensus that the BF cabs are not fragile, which is obviously vital. But my band members (who I'm guessing range in weight from 44kg right up to 77kg :)) are quite happy on occasion to perch on my Markbass combo, and I've not batted an eyelid when they've done so. Would you all be as equally relaxed about your heavier band members sitting on the top of your BF cabs? I guess that for me is a reasonable test of strength for the 9mm plywood used in the BF cabs?
[/quote]

I definately wouldn't be afraid to stand on my Barefaced cabs. The nature of the internal bracing makes them very strong. I've been a Barefaced user since 2008/9 and have been gigging Barefaced cabs exclusively since then. I've never sustained any significant damage. Small chips can be painted over although I've never done even that.

Frank.

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[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1499624863' post='3332577']
Just out of interest Bill, what does your own Jack lite weigh?
[/quote]30 pounds.

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[quote name='Treb' timestamp='1499442965' post='3331633']
When in doubt support your local economy.
[/quote]

When in doubt do some research! Buying local for the sake of it isn't really a good plan.

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[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1499464681' post='3331792']
are very clean/flat sounding, no colouration so really let your bass and amp shine through, what you put in is what comes out
[/quote]

I have found myself saying the same thing about my Vanderkley 112MNT, and yet it occurs to me that it is a funny thing to assert because how can anyone know this? (short of plugging the signal at various points (Including a very good and well positioned microphone) into an oscilloscope or some other bit of electronic wizardry). Also, if it's desirable to have no colouration in in the speaker why is it allowed to have colouration in the amplifier?

At the end of the day it's the sum total of the instrument, amplifier and speaker that you hear, so you need to assess the whole lot with your ears and decide by what you like rather than anything else.

(all IMHO of course)

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Posted (edited)
[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1499598476' post='3332407']


Thanks for clarifying Bill, particularly with the car engine analogy which really helped!







Seems that there's a consensus that the BF cabs are not fragile, which is obviously vital. But my band members (who I'm guessing range in weight from 44kg right up to 77kg :)) are quite happy on occasion to perch on my Markbass combo, and I've not batted an eyelid when they've done so. Would you all be as equally relaxed about your heavier band members sitting on the top of your BF cabs? I guess that for me is a reasonable test of strength for the 9mm plywood used in the BF cabs?
[/quote]

15 stone* regular Barefaced-sitter here

*95kg Edited by Roland Rock

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They both look aesthetically appealing and sure they sound great. But very dear.Suppose they have to compensate being a small company.

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[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1499626734' post='3332593']
I definitely wouldn't be afraid to stand on my Barefaced cabs. The nature of the internal bracing makes them very strong. I've been a Barefaced user since 2008/9 and have been gigging Barefaced cabs exclusively since then. I've never sustained any significant damage. Small chips can be painted over although I've never done even that.
[/quote]
[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1499667395' post='3332765']
15 stone* regular Barefaced-sitter here *95kg
[/quote]

Well I think the above (plus Bill's comments on being happy with <9mm in his cabs) should put any residual concerns about BF cab fragility to bed for all us BCers? It certainly makes me think this is not something I need to be worrying about.

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[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1499598476' post='3332407']
Thanks for clarifying Bill, particularly with the car engine analogy which really helped!







Seems that there's a consensus that the BF cabs are not fragile, which is obviously vital. But my band members (who I'm guessing range in weight from 44kg right up to 77kg :)) are quite happy on occasion to perch on my Markbass combo, and I've not batted an eyelid when they've done so. Would you all be as equally relaxed about your heavier band members sitting on the top of your BF cabs? I guess that for me is a reasonable test of strength for the 9mm plywood used in the BF cabs?
[/quote]

If you're thinking of going down an amp/cab solution rather than a combo and letting your mates stand on it i reckon the build quality of the cab is the least of your worries....unless you bolt the amp on the top of it of course ;)

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Posted (edited)
[quote name='Mudpup' timestamp='1499673500' post='3332799']
If you're thinking of going down an amp/cab solution rather than a combo and letting your mates stand on it i reckon the build quality of the cab is the least of your worries....unless you bolt the amp on the top of it of course ;)
[/quote]

Haha, yup I'd be pretty annoyed if any of them [i]stood[/i] on my cab (or my combo) and I'm sure they wouldn't. And you're right having an amp-head on top should partly deter them from doing that too (although most amp heads will still leave some perch space!), but 3 hours into a rehearsal you can't entirely eliminate folks desire to take the weight off their legs and bass gear is somehow a lot more tempting than tiny guitar combos. Anyway Frank and Roland Rock's comments suggest to me that even if they did it wouldn't be anything too be worried about, which also says to me that the whole BF cab fragility point, cos Alex uses 9mm ply, is a non point and we can take that concern off the table. And if it's ever raised again, well folk can just point to Roland's 95kg sitting very comfortably on his BF cab... :) Edited by Al Krow

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Posted (edited)
Just don't perch on the rear edge and tilt forwards, lest the wheels wheels scoot the cab backwards from under you, and you fall in an embarrassing heap. Edited by Roland Rock

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