Inevitability of jazz?

[mentalextra]

What sort of jazz are we talking about here, the "saints come marching in" type or the incidental music from a Dirty Harry movie type?

[pmjos]

If you enjoy ever harder challenges and you never want to stop learning then you are gonna end up in Jazz like it or not - unless you die first or course. Its where the really hard sh*t is. Its a electric bass player's classical music. Even you do it just to improve playing the stuff you like. If you can play Chic Corea's 'Spain' those Duck Dunn lines will come out better.

On the other hand a tip to Gwizdala-lala land playing classical guitar through loopers on a bass. Not for me. Can I just say he is an astonishing musician - its just not my taste. The lala land refers to his fekn awful singing voice only. John Pattitucci I can do.

I am on that inevitable slope - inevitable for me anyway.

[Muzz]

[quote name='pmjos' timestamp='1499017151' post='3328615']
If you can play Chic Corea's 'Spain' those Duck Dunn lines will come out better.
[/quote]

I watched a band recently that proves that isn't by any means an inevitability. Very technically and musically talented players making 'simpler' funk and soul sound...soulless....and unfunky...

[JapanAxe]

I went though jazz years ago and I'm now in country.

[grandad]

Well it has been my journey so far, but only since my fifties which was when I first picked up a bass guitar. From pub's to clubs to functions and weddings took care of the first 15 years covering 50's, 60's and 70's pop.

I was persuaded to go along and play with a small jazz ensemble by their rhythm guitarist. 18 months later I'm still there and loving it. Doesn't seem quite so 'hectic' as the covers band scene. Just sax, trumpet, guitar and myself on bass. Occasionally we play with guests.

It wasn't inevitable so much as by luck to meet up with these lovely people and play some great music. We're all 60+ years old and not interested in regular gigging but make a public appearance about once a month. Happened at the right time for me.

Edited July 2, 2017 by grandad

[Telebass]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1499013794' post='3328577']
The Jazz doesn't bother me, but I draw the line at all those bloody banjos.
[/quote]
This. So very much this!

[Steve Browning]

I have gone in completely the other direction (as a result of my Dad, who was a pro Jazz man before the war). As soon as I started playing bass 'seriously' he took me along to a jazz big band where I was sight reading all the usual big band things (I had learned piano for years and so the change to bass wasn't hard as far as sight reading went). I was also in a punk/R'n'B band at I got asked to join a modern jazz quarter so I was doing punk gigs, modern jazz (piano, bass, drums and vibes) and doing the big band too.

I have to say, playing in a big band is something else when you are literally immersed in the sheer power of a horn section. It's quite an experience.

I think it's the challenge but also you become less evangelical as you get older and are less inclined to maintain the 'tribalness' of youth. There are some simply stunning tunes in Jazz and I defy anyone to listen to Ben Webster play a ballad on the sax and not be moved.

[BaconCheese]

Every musical biography is different. It depends on what you like and what you want to do. It also depends on the people you choose to work with and who is availible to you, where you are located, who (if anyone) you choose as a teacher and other things.

There are self-taught musicians who are just incredible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKUttYs5ow

Most autodidacts however are more limited and concentrate on one style of music that they perfect. Take Malmsteen for example. He quit school and played the guitar like crazy. Cleary influenced by Blackmoore, he invented a new take on shred guitar. He never wanted to play Jazz.

Same thing with Slash. He was mainly an autodidact and just wanted to play Rock.

Petrucci from Dream Theater was studiying a Berklee College of Music (for a semester) but he never was into Jazz as were almost all of his fellow students. Instead he found one of the very few drummers on the campus that were into Rock and Progressive Rock- Mike Portnoy. The rest is history.

Playing Jazz can be very useful to yourself as a musician, but only if you want to go in that direction. My advanced students will definately come into contact with Jazz (Walking Bass, playing melodies, improvisation, vocabulary) but it is up to them if they want to pursue it further. There is no point in studying thousands of hours of Jazz impro if you want to play Metal.

[Steve Browning]

I actually disagree, the vocabulary you encounter in jazz gives you options in all genres.

Your post raises the question of why teach jazz at all if you don't expect them to pursue it further - and you teach people to solo? :-)

[BaconCheese]

The goal is to have a solid foundation that a student can develop further if he wants to. You can show them what they have to know, but to become a decent Jazz player, you have to spend a lot of time practicing and you would have to join a Jazz band. Anyway, a lot of "Metalheads" who just want to play Metal change their taste and they can rely on the foundation- understanding the concept of Jazz.

Edited July 3, 2017 by BaconCheese

[chris_b]

[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1499064880' post='3328832']
I have to say, playing in a big band is something else when you are literally immersed in the sheer power of a horn section. It's quite an experience.
[/quote]

Oh yes.

My experience isn't in Big Bands, but in my youth I played in many Soul-Jazz bands with between 2 and 5 piece horn sections. Nothing sounds as good as Trumpet/Trombone/Sax and especially Baritone at full chat. Unfortunately the finances don't allow such gigs in the world I inhabit these days.

I'd also agree that Jazz is a great vehicle to broaden your knowledge and ability which can then be applied to all other genres. But I particularly dislike Jazz players who try to fit "jazz" into everything they play, or treat their training as a means of filling out the arrangement with as many notes as they can. The guys coming out of the music schools these days can be guilty of that. There's nothing worse than playing a Rock Blues gig (which I sometimes do with a "jazz" drummer) and having flams and press drum rolls appearing in the most inappropriate places.

If you are any good your training in Jazz and those techniques will have given you the ability to underplay with the confidence of knowing you can blow everyone off the stage. Wilton Felder, Carol Kaye and Nathan East are great example of guys who can play Jazz and don't when it isn't appropriate.

Ooops. I think I've gone off the topic a little.

[Geek99]

was slash not taught quite a bit by Steven Adler ?

[BaconCheese]

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1499082997' post='3328995']
was slash not taught quite a bit by Steven Adler ?
[/quote]

I read his autobiography and as far as I can remember (read it twice), Slash had guitar lessons for a couple of months and then decided to do his own thing. He learned by playing along with his favourite records and by pratice with his bandmates.

[Geek99]

Steven Adler is adamant in his book that he taught Slash;

[Bilbo]

I think that there are other factors at play here. Many popular musicians end up looking for greater challenges such as Jazz but, depending on the level of their earlier successes, turn back to more popular genres in an effort to recapture their early financial successes. Gary Moore was never an A lister so always sought a means of generating income. His rationales were little more than justifications. Miles Davis wanted to achieve the success of Hendrix. It wasn't a musical driver, it was socio-cultural. He wanted the status and kudos. The guys who started Earth, Wind and Fire were ex-Jazzers. The Stranglers were a Prog band. It is the lure of financial success that attracts. There are people who were successful in Pop who moved into Jazzier genres who never really went back; Elvis Costello, Andy Summers, Colin Towns, Georgie Fame etc. There are others but I am typing on a phone and can't be arsed.

[BaconCheese]

True but I am struggling to call Andys music "Jazz". It is more like world music or improvised music.

Edited July 3, 2017 by BaconCheese

[BaconCheese]

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1499093001' post='3329104']
Steven Adler is adamant in his book that he taught Slash;
[/quote]

I never read Stevens book... it might be true but he is not credited in Slashs book.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1499103680' post='3329203']
There are people who were successful in Pop who moved into Jazzier genres who never really went back; Elvis Costello, Andy Summers, Colin Towns, Georgie Fame etc.
[/quote]
And then there's Van Morrison!

[Geek99]

[quote name='BaconCheese' timestamp='1499103870' post='3329207']


I never read Stevens book... it might be true but he is not credited in Slashs book.
[/quote]
Down to the notoriously bad blood between them all and the unceremonious way that a heavily drug addicted Adler was ejected maybe ?

[BaconCheese]

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1499110493' post='3329292']

Down to the notoriously bad blood between them all and the unceremonious way that a heavily drug addicted Adler was ejected maybe ?
[/quote]

Just having read the Slash bio, I think he really liked Steven, Izzy and Duff. No bad blood at all. Steven was just so high all the time that they had to fire him.

[oldbass]

Not quite, mine has ended up with.....The Three Degrees and Gladys Knight. Fab music to play along to. Though I dont mind a bit of "Autumn Leaves"...or "Along Came Betty" now and again. Good too.

[Cato]

[quote name='BaconCheese' timestamp='1499111890' post='3329314']


Just having read the Slash bio, I think he really liked Steven, Izzy and Duff. No bad blood at all. Steven was just so high all the time that they had to fire him.
[/quote]

The version I heard was that they gave him a shedload of chances and ultimatums to get clean.

The end came when he couldn't physically play his parts on Use your Illusion because he was so out of it. At that point the band felt they had no choice but to move on without him.

I know he's played with Izzy, Duff and Slash a couple of times since and he' played with G & R at least once in the last couple of years, although I don't know if that was before or after the mini classic line up reunion, so it sounds like whatever wounds there were have mostly healed.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Cato

[Geek99]

It was before the classic line up reunion. Adler talk about it in his book

[oldslapper]

[quote name='BaconCheese' timestamp='1499111890' post='3329314']
Steven was just so high all the time that they had to fire him.
[/quote]

Aaaaah, the age old link between jazz & rock....heroin

[Barking Spiders]

Hmm not really no. I like a loft of stuff that's partially smeared or tinged with jazz - e.g. A Tribe Called Quest, St Germain, Down To The Bone, the Cinematic Orchestra - but no way have I any wish to get in deep into Blue Note etc