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miles'tone

Conspiracies aside, which do you prefer?

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The 432Hz v 440Hz standard A tuning debate.
Here's a good vid showing the difference between the two. There are many vids on YouTube which tune down well known songs to 432, but I'm still not sure about them as it's kinda faking the artists performance by altering the feel. A bit.
I like this demo as it's a real time comparison performance-wise.
Playing starts at 4.25. I know which I prefer, what about you?
http://youtu.be/Rt3EAPDn-Ug

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hmmn, i have never come across this before. i cant say that i found all that much of a difference overall. a couple of the tunes he played sounded a bit richer at 432hz but some seemed to ring a bit more at 440hz.
that said, it has piqued my interest with a couple of aspects of my own playing. i spent years living in the woods with no power (not for any pseudo-hippy reasons, i was working as a woodsman and i could live in the woods rent free so thats where i was) and as such i only really had my acoustic guitar for music. i noticed at the time that if i was to tune up without a tuner then it would always be just a little under standard, and i would be much more comfortable singing and i would get much more into my little sessions. i could spent weeks like that until someone else turned up and we had to tune up together and i would correct it. i always struggle to sing at a standard pitch, no so much that i cant warm up a little and get into it but its much more natural being a little bit under. again though, i imagine that everyone on earth has a slightly different comfort zone when singing. i may have to tune it down and experiment though, for interest sake.

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432Hz sounds more epic to me. Or maybe 440Hz sounds better? Or maybe I can't hear the difference... I don't know.

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I've done quite a lot of recording of my ambient stuff tuned to A at 432hz.

The last time I posted on here about it a lot of the usual know-it-alls piped up, as is their right I guess, I do think there's something about how the notes behave together that isn't there in standard tuning. I do use a lot of sustained tones using an Ebow.

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That was interesting, thank you.

I'd say the 332 examples felt subdued, not quite gloomy but tending that way, in comparison with the 440 examples. Those made me feel more "on it" and upbeat somehow. To say that they sounded brighter stands to reason I suppose. I don't really know if I'd feel the same way about the examples heard in isolation.

It might be worth listening to one group (either of 332 or 440 examples) later but played back by a friend who doesn't let on which. I'd love to see if I can then tell which is which just for a laff.

Interestingly, my listening companion said he thought the 440 examples were "mellower". I thought the 332 examples were mellower so it's a subjective thing. Confirms what we already know about music; It's in the ear of the beholder.

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[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1493801157' post='3290691']
I've done quite a lot of recording of my ambient stuff tuned to A at 432hz.

The last time I posted on here about it a lot of the usual know-it-alls piped up, as is their right I guess, I do think there's something about how the notes behave together that isn't there in standard tuning. I do use a lot of sustained tones using an Ebow.
[/quote]

Not wishing to sound like a know-it-all, but in terms of harmonic relationships there's no difference between them.

I'm not looking to stand in judgement, but because of the way equal temperament tuning works it makes no difference at all where you put the reference point; every other note that is created from it will will be related to it according to the following algorithm:

[b][size=5]F[sub]t[/sub] = F[sub]r[/sub](2[sup]n/12[/sup]) [/size][/b]

where F[sub]r[/sub] is the reference frequency, F[sub]t[/sub] is the target frequency and n is the number of semitones between the two ([b]Note[/b]: for notes below the reference frequency n is negative)

In simple terms it's a ratio. Since the ratio is fixed for any given note, changing the reference frequency will have no effect on it. The frequencies of the notes change, but the mathematical relationship between them doesn't.

This subject has cropped on BC a few times before. Unfortunately for its proponents, the Mathematics is still the same as it has been for around 300 years.

Nothing wrong with tuning to 432Hz of course - knock yourself out - but the standard (though not universal) reference has for some time been 440Hz. In audio terms the difference in pitch is barely perceptible (Ab has a pitch of around 415Hz); how much of a difference this would make to the listening experience is debatable at best.

Article: [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch"]https://en.wikipedia...i/Concert_pitch[/url]

Edited by leftybassman392

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[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1493805069' post='3290735']
Not wishing to sound like a know-it-all, but in terms of harmonic relationships there's no difference between them.

<snip>

Nothing wrong with tuning to 432Hz of course - knock yourself out - but the accepted standard has for some time been 440Hz. In audio terms the difference in pitch is barely perceptible; how much of a difference this would make to the listening experience is debatable at best
[/quote]

In keeping with the debate;

I haven't any information on whether there was a minute change in the tempo of the examples given that would be in proportion to the change in frequency of the notes played. Such a difference in tempo would have to be so small as to be virtually insignificant to the human ear yet it must exist. Whether a human musician could actually be that accurate is also debatable.

If however the tempo for each example remains constant it would follow that note durations would also be constant. If the only variable is the note frequency, would that not have an effect perceptible or otherwise on an unchanged frame imposed by tempo?

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[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1493805769' post='3290745']
If however the tempo for each example remains constant it would follow that note durations would also be constant. If the only variable is the note frequency, would that not have an effect perceptible or otherwise on [i][b]an unchanged frame imposed by tempo[/b][/i]?
[/quote]

(My emphasis) I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the highlighted remark. :huh:

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It's only sort of a standard anyway.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch

Apparently we need to tune to an oboe

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[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1493806246' post='3290753']
It's only sort of a standard anyway.. [url="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch"]https://en.m.wikiped...i/Concert_pitch[/url]

Apparently we need to tune to an oboe
[/quote]

Ummm... you do know that I linked to that article already...?

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Btw, I preferred 432Hz. It sounds more soulful to me. 440Hz sounded a bit too urgent and quite twee in comparison. IMHO.
I look forward to experimenting with this myself..

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Autistic-pianist-learning-upright-bass here contributing :

I also enjoy sound-to-colour synaesthesia , and I find the colours in 432 more saturated , although I don't expect anyone to believe that now .

@ Leftybassman ; Ambient is not necessarily bound to equal temperament ; he plays solo 7-string fretless .

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I prefer 440hz. But then this guitar might well by happier tuned to one frequency over the other. So many factors.

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Can't really say if I prefer one to the other if I'm honest but the guitar did sound different.

Guitars are wood and metal bits so many things do affect them. Would it have been as noticable using a synth pitch shifted I wonder ?

Les

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Odd. I think it depends on which one is played first. If the 432 comes first, and my ear gets "tuned in" to that, then the 440 sounds slightly rushed and insistent. Possibly slightly weedy too...

If the 440 starts, then the 432 sounds kind of melancholy, but also a bit more full. It is difficult to describe in words. :blink:

But I have a tape deck that causes similar effects... :lol:

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I think the difference in sound (or timbre actually) is only there because of the tension on the strings. it this was done with an electronic keyboard probably there wouldn't be any major difference other than one feeling out of tune when he changes to the other tuning.

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[quote name='DaveFry' timestamp='1493812214' post='3290827']
@ Leftybassman ; Ambient is not necessarily bound to equal temperament ; he plays solo 7-string fretless .
[/quote]

Fair point, but whatever type of scale it is using the same basic rules apply since scale systems are defined in terms of note-note ratios. Also, I would respectfully suggest that a fretless bass would be more likely to mask such small frequency differentials than accentuate them.

As I said though, if people like it then who am I to gainsay?

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Is all that hippy guff about cosmic frequencies & stuff at the beginning of the clip meant to be a joke or is it serious?

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[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1493814466' post='3290867']
Is all that hippy guff about cosmic frequencies & stuff at the beginning of the clip meant to be a joke or is it serious?
[/quote]

I think some people do take it quite seriously. Here's the result of a quick YouTube search:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=432+hz"][media]http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=432+hz[/media][/url]

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[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1493814886' post='3290873']
I think some people do take it quite seriously. Here's the result of a quick YouTube search:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=432+hz"][media]http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=432+hz[/media][/url]
[/quote]

Blimey.

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[quote name='DaveFry' timestamp='1493812214' post='3290827']
Autistic-pianist-learning-upright-bass here contributing :

I also enjoy sound-to-colour synaesthesia , and I find the colours in 432 more saturated , although I don't expect anyone to believe that now .

@ Leftybassman ; Ambient is not necessarily bound to equal temperament ; he plays solo 7-string fretless .
[/quote]

I have autism too, maybe it's that but I definitely hear, or perhaps feel a difference in the sounds.

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[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1493814466' post='3290867']
Is all that hippy guff about cosmic frequencies & stuff at the beginning of the clip meant to be a joke or is it serious?
[/quote]

There's some neat patterns if you start from a "magical frequency" of 3 Hz for a G. The G six octaves above is 192 Hz. A perfect fifth above that is D at 288 Hz and a further perfect fifth is A = 432 Hz.

Stuff like that impressed people in the olden days.

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