If you could only choose one octave pedal

[Al Krow]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1505122351' post='3369559']
The Analogue sound everyone mentions [i]and [/i]the [i]ridiculously[/i] low tracking...I'm going to give Sub n' Up a thumbs up on both of these points. It does indeed track lower than any Octave pedal I've used whilst staying 'stable'... Within this pedal's parameters is the ability to adjust the EQ on each of the separate octaves (+1, -1, -2) along with the ability to even add Chorus and other cool effects. The reason I mention the EQ is that it is possible to warm up that octave tone; you'll get the best of both worlds. My own preset I've created a 1 octave down tone, but I have scooped the sub frequencies off of the -1 output. This has given me a super tracking sound but it is tight, tight, tight! So punchy rather than dub-sub (which of course it can do in spades if I want).
[/quote]

Ok Dood, forgive me, but I can't resist asking you a very cheeky Q!

Given just how amazing the TC Subn'ups are from your description and your kind reminder to all us BC'ers of this fact this at 10.30am this morning and perhaps a bit left field from where the discussion had been previously heading on the thread** [i]why [/i]at 3.30pm today were you selling yours?!

Is it a) because now you've achieved octave perfection via Toneprint it has ceased to be any fun for you?, or

b ) (More seriously) that the mini version does everything that full sized version does but just takes up less up less real estate? [So if we are getting a new one we might as well get the "mini"?]

**we still haven't responded to abc's question about the cost of getting a bespoke design on a COG - the answer I think is on the COG website i.e. they will provide you with an online quote for that, depending on what you want done.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Al Krow

[Dood]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1505150373' post='3369840']
Ok Dood, forgive me, but I can't resist asking you a very cheeky Q!

Given just how amazing the TC Subn'ups are from your description and your kind reminder to all us BC'ers of this fact this at 10.30am this morning and perhaps a bit left field from where the discussion had been previously heading on the thread** [i]why [/i]at 3.30pm today were you selling yours?!

Is it a) because now you've achieved octave perfection via Toneprint it has ceased to be any fun for you?, or

b ) (More seriously) that the mini version does everything that full sized version does but just takes up less up less real estate? [So if we are getting a new one we might as well get the "mini"?]

**we still haven't responded to abc's question about the cost of getting a bespoke design on a COG - the answer I think is on the COG website i.e. they will provide you with an online quote for that, depending on what you want done.
[/quote]

Mine is up for sale as I am a poor professional musician and I want to buy the MINI version of exactly the same pedal. I can't afford to own both as much as I'd like to - Yes, TC have just brought out a tiny version of the same pedal using exactly the same electronics (bar one knob). I've a small pedal board that I use for Dep gigs and 'fly dates' which I'll be able to make a bit smaller to fit in my gig bag.

Edited September 11, 2017 by dood

[Dood]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1505150373' post='3369840']


b ) (More seriously) that the mini version does everything that full sized version does but just takes up less up less real estate? [So if we are getting a new one we might as well get the "mini"?]
[/quote]

Oops sorry, missed this bit - No, get the big one simply because the smaller version doesn't have the +1, -1, -2 controls on top. There's no -2 knob by default. I rarely need the extra control - and, TonePrint is more than enough for my needs

I still adore Sub n' Up.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1505150920' post='3369851']
Mine is up for sale as I am a poor professional musician and I want to buy the MINI version of exactly the same pedal. I can't afford to own both as much as I'd like to - Yes, TC have just brought out a tiny version of the same pedal using exactly the same electronics (bar one knob). I've a small pedal board that I use for Dep gigs and 'fly dates' which I'll be able to make a bit smaller to fit in my gig bag.
[/quote]
[quote name='dood' timestamp='1505151075' post='3369853']
Oops sorry, missed this bit - No, get the big one simply because the smaller version doesn't have the +1, -1, -2 controls on top. There's no -2 knob by default. I rarely need the extra control - and, TonePrint is more than enough for my needs I still adore Sub n' Up.
[/quote]

Ok that was a seriously impressive response! Are you sure you didn't previously work for Bell Pottinger?

[Dood]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1505151478' post='3369859']
Ok that was a seriously impressive response! Are you sure you didn't previously work for Bell Pottinger?
[/quote]

I actually had to look up [font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]Bell Pottinger. They seem like nice people and could probably benefit from having me on the team ha ha ha ha!!![/color][/font]

[tonyxtiger]

This personal comparison highlights to me just how useful a service like FXPedalRental could be in a market where there are so many variations of the "same" effect. I'm not affiliated with the company at all but when I do the math I realise that I've spent over £500 on these 4 pedals alone. I'm a self confessed octave junkie so I feel no burning desire to move any of them on but if I were on the quest for my one ideal octave sound, the option to trial or rent them would have saved many weeks of searching/bidding/PMing/PayPal gifting

Cameron, well said. This is something I'm looking at implementing. Essentially like a discount code for "home shootouts" along the lines of a 2 for 1. So you can try three pedals of the same effect type for proper comparison. Your in depth review was fantastic but I bet others might get slightly different results. That's only natural. And you are right, Octaves are fussy with bass type/player style.

Also it works for sound design. For example how many interpretations are there of a "bass synth" sound? You could have singularly a Future impact 1 on its own. Or, octave pedal/drive/modulation. octave/filter/fuzz. Filter/modulation/delay etc, etc.

An example is the 3 leaf Doom which I think has people thinking Doom Fuzz. It's actually far more of a harmonically rich synth fuzz. It's excellent for that. It's not for metal heads at all. There are many aspects to a synth tone using pedals and it's great fun experimenting with just that!

[Al Krow]

[b]COG T16 (Gen 1) - easy fix for "full filter" [/b][b]low volume issue[/b]

As a number of you have noted on this thread an issue with Gen 1 COG T16s. This is the low output on a 100% (or even substantially) wet "full filter" tone setting i.e. combined with a low clean / blend. This has a more "synthy" sound.

A very easy fix for this issue if you have a pre-amp (which seems to work a [i]lot[/i] better than simply increasing the volume on the amp) is simply to boost the signal from the COG when you have a it on "synth setting" (i.e. substantial / full filter and low clean). In my case I'm using a Two Notes on Channel A as the preamp and I just need to increase the volume on that by one notch from what I would normally have it set on. (I also find I get the best sounds by dialling back the bass and treble EQs on the preamp at the same time).

So it turns out to my relief - as getting the much liked COG 100% wet synth tone (as well as the authentic "clean" bass octave and almost zero latency that comes from an analogue pedal) was an important part of the reason for getting the COG - that this is no biggie after all.

Please note that this fix seems to work better when the signal [i]output [/i]from the COG is boosted (i.e. preamp after the COG in the chain) rather than boosting the input signal to the COG (which has the undesirable effect of changing the tone of the COG synth quite a lot).

The Gen 2 T16s came out a few weeks back, where this "low volume" issue has been apparently sorted. Tom, from COG, has kindly confirmed to me that the new T16s are using the upgraded circuitry from the T47s T65s and T70s which didn't have this issue in the first place (although, to be fair, I'm really not sure why he would have originally used different circuitry in the old T16s from the other pedals to start with?...)

But for those of who have a Gen 1 T16 or get hold of one second hand in the future, it's good to know that there is an easy fix if we have a pre-amp (or similar signal booster) on our pedal board to enable us to access the full range of sounds available from the otherwise excellent little T16.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

For those of you who might be interested - I've updated my previous note above, to feed in a few more days of playing around with the signal chain to optimise the output from my COG T16. Hope it's of use to some of you current T16 owners who may not have already solved.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1503085295' post='3355667']
...[the COG T16 is] a great sounding octave for adding a beefy sub under your higher register playing, but I just preferred the tone (and volume) of the 3Leaf when soloed, and at the time I was chasing that solo keyboard synth style effect.
[/quote]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1503138952' post='3355962']
If you want an octave to fill out the sound with an added sub in the background then the COG is awesome. The tracking is stellar and being able to dial the tone right down to sub bass makes it blend really well.

If you want to use it 100% wet, essentially just using it as a synth pedal and playing higher up to compensate for the difference in pitch, the Octabvre Mini just has a great solo voice that you can't get from the COG. Conversely, this punchy mid-heavy tone doesn't work as well as the COG when blended with clean, where a milder sound often works better.
[/quote]

[b]Getting a great solo synth octave sound?[/b]

Hey DB (and anyone else who has a view please!) I need to pick your brains - as I guess I'm trying to get to that solo keyboard synth style effect too.

Starting point is my COG T16. The octave synth is pretty good (and a lot of folk seem to really like), particularly when the signal out is boosted (see above for Gen 1 T16s). It's down tracking isn't amazing however in synth mode - it can comfortable get to around a C# in synth mode rather than an A which it does in "classic" (clean blended) octave mode.

I think you're saying the 3Leaf Octabvre (and I would be looking at the mini rather than the full MkII) does better on solo synth octave, but also that the Octabvre is less good blended clean than the T16 from your comments above?

Another option is to abandon the authentic bass tone and low latency of analogue and bite the bullet and go digital with a Toneprinted TC Sub'n'up, with its amazing low tracking (down to an E or lower!). But it seems to me (and sorry if I'm going over old ground here) if I did that:
- I'd be just stuck with the synth sound for the duration of a gig with no ability to revert to classic octave i.e. Toneprint has lots of flexibility to craft the right sound in the first place but it is a [i]sequential one trick pony[/i], right?!
- You can't go from one Toneprinted sound (clean octave / +synth / +tremolo / +chorus ) to another at the press of a footswitch when playing live. Instead you have to get your phone out dial the right setting etc etc. That's a non starter for me mid set.
- i.e. if the TC Toneprint pedals are pretending to be a multi-fx, but with just one footswitch, then they have the same live-use flexibility as a Zoom MS-60B. It's no Zoom B3n in terms of live user interface and why I sold my MS-60B.

Where I'm landing is that if I want to get something [i]really good[/i] as a solo synth octave I'd need to chain the COG T16 with its excellent "classic" (blended clean) octave with an MXR M82 Bass Envelope Filter (or something similar)?

What do you think? Any alternative suggestions?

[CameronJ]

If you're looking at filters I have to say the Fwonkbeta I've just acquired is awesome in conjunction with my octavers and dirt pedals as it brings so much low end. It's massive. One of the reasons I got rid of my MXR Bass Envelope Filter was that it's bandpass and therefore isn't anywhere near as thick a sound as I like, particularly when running octave pedals.

Oh and a big fat honourable mention goes to the Source Audio Manta. The palette of synthy sounds possible out of that thing is huge, especially as you can blend a selection of distortions into the filter all within the pedal. It might take a little while (not very long) to get to grips with editing it but since everything is accessible from the front panel you can knob tweak physically without being tied to an app.

Edited September 14, 2017 by CameronJ

[dannybuoy]

I used a Manta in conjunction with the Octabvre, the fact you can have distortion and expression-swept LPF in one pedal is great for synth applications.

The Octabvre is incredibly punchy and mid heavy with a passive P bass plugged straight in, but with certain other pedals before it, it's much more of a sub monster, so I'd have to revisit it and try it blended to see how it sounds. I don't use it much these days but I am hanging onto it as it sounded so good for that one application!

[Al Krow]

[quote name='CameronJ' timestamp='1505394710' post='3371595']
If you're looking at filters I have to say the Fwonkbeta I've just acquired is awesome in conjunction with my octavers and dirt pedals as it brings so much low end. It's massive. One of the reasons I got rid of my MXR Bass Envelope Filter was that it's bandpass and therefore isn't anywhere near as thick a sound as I like, particularly when running octave pedals. Oh and a big fat honourable mention goes to the Source Audio Manta. The palette of synthy sounds possible out of that thing is huge, especially as you can blend a selection of distortions into the filter all within the pedal. It might take a little while (not very long) to get to grips with editing it but since everything is accessible from the front panel you can knob tweak physically without being tied to an app.
[/quote]

Cheers Cameron and DB, really helpful / useful as ever!

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The [/font][/color][url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq5UmstPNfg"]Source Audio Manta[/url], which you both mention, [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]does look really good (new £149). It does a ton of stuff (envelope, phaser, distortion). It's a little less compact than the MXR, but hey I can make room by moving my Ciocks DC8 power to the underside of my pedal board...[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The [/font][/color][url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opKs5ZGqVpg"]MXR M82 Bass Envelope[/url][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] (similarly priced new at £145) is analogue so like to have a better clean blend tone, but I'm trying to get 100% wet synth so I guess not so crucial here? But it seems to have a lot less versatility than the Manta and I take on board your point Cameron about a thinner sound when running with an octave pedal.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Interestingly Ed F in the MXR YouTube clip also suggests combining the MXR Bass Envelope with an octaver so I guess the initial premise of "filter plus octave" very much has an "official" stamp of approval, and is something that is pretty widely used?[/font][/color]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1505399593' post='3371628']
I used a Manta in conjunction with the Octabvre, the fact you can have distortion and expression-swept LPF in one pedal is great for synth applications. The Octabvre is incredibly punchy and mid heavy with a passive P bass plugged straight in, but with certain other pedals before it, it's much more of a sub monster, so I'd have to revisit it and try it blended to see how it sounds. I don't use it much these days but I am hanging onto it as it sounded so good for that one application!
[/quote]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]@[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]DB so is the Octabvre now gathering dust in the cupboard alongside the Manta, the Two Notes and the DG AO?! Starting to be a "who's who?" of the pedal world and soon to become a grade II listed shrine to us BC effect addicts... [/font][/color]

Edited September 14, 2017 by Al Krow

[CameronJ]

The Manta's larger footprint is completely worth it as it has two footswitchable presets. The jacks are also top mounted so, depending on which patch cables you use, the difference in footprint vs MXR BEF may not be as huge as it initially seems.

Also, IMO you can get the Manta to sound like the MXR but there are so many sounds in the Manta that you'll never have a hope of replicating with the BEF alone. As far as pure bang for your buck I have to say Source Audio really nail it. There's a reason they have such a huge thread over on Talkbass - a lot of folk over there run purely (or mostly) SA boards with the hub and a MIDI switcher to give them access to literally hundreds of tonal combinations.

Anyway, so as to avoid derailing the thread - I'm really eagerly waiting for Source Audio to release an octave pedal...but it seems that their focus is on support for the Nemesis delay and Ventris reverb, along with expanding the Neuro app and Neuro Hub (AKA Soundblox Hub, they're the same thing).

Looks like we may have quite a long wait for a SA octave/pitch pedal, much to my chagrin!

[Al Krow]

[quote name='CameronJ' timestamp='1505410025' post='3371754']
The Manta's larger footprint is completely worth it as it has two footswitchable presets. The jacks are also top mounted so, depending on which patch cables you use, the difference in footprint vs MXR BEF may not be as huge as it initially seems.
Also, IMO you can get the Manta to sound like the MXR but there are so many sounds in the Manta that you'll never have a hope of replicating with the BEF alone. As far as pure bang for your buck I have to say Source Audio really nail it. There's a reason they have such a huge thread over on Talkbass - a lot of folk over there run purely (or mostly) SA boards with the hub and a MIDI switcher to give them access to literally hundreds of tonal combinations.
[/quote]

Last detour Q on envelope filters if I may - and then we should get back to Octavers!

Source Audio Manta - lots of plusses and apparently "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]It can do all kinds of crazy sounds, but can't seem to do the classic funky 70's envelope filter quack and squelch." Obviously that's not the "be all" but...[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]3Leaf Wonderlove (or imaybe the more compact Proton) and Xotic Robotalk 2 have both been suggested as good alternatives, and I know you picked up a Wonderlove [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]recently [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Cameron (Btw - you and DB currently have a pedal collection to rival fxpedalrentals between you! ).[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]So if you had to choose just one of these three which one would you go for and why?[/font][/color]

Edited September 15, 2017 by Al Krow

[elephantgrey]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1505432834' post='3371942']
Last detour Q on envelope filters
[/quote]
I see what you did there =p

[CameronJ]

Well I sold my Wonderlove on a few weeks ago but still have the Manta, so make of that what you will! Never tried a Robotalk but I've just watched a video demo and it sounds good.

[CameronJ]

To clarify, the Wonderlove is great but I subsequently found I could get a better/smoother fingerstyle tone more easily from an Aguilar Filter Twin and. Enter synthy results from my Manta. Of course, filters are even more subjective than octavers as far as reacting differently with different people's basses & technique so it really can be a case of "one man's trash is another man's treasure" here...

Check out this big comparison post over on TB: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/mr-black-fwonkbeta-envelope-filter.1210977/page-8#post-18561343

Of the pedals on his list which I've owned and used, he's pretty much spot on with his assessments.

[Bo0tsy]

Mu Tron III, Tru Tron 3x, Chunk Systems Agent 00Funk and Emma Discumbobulator are probably at the top of my list when it comes to envelope filters. I'm also starting to rediscover the EHX Enigma Q Balls. The reverse sweeps you can get with the start and stop controls are incredible. I just couldn't get on with the SA MANTA, but then I like the classic envelope dirty quack and squelch that the Mantra couldn't seem to do. It could do a lot else though! :0)

Back onto the topic of Octavers, my Mu-fx Octave Divider is awesome, the most powerful octaver I've come across with great tracking for an analogue pedal. The sub Octave and green ringer effects are also very very usable for bass. I also regularly use a classic OC-2 and Foxrox Octron which is somewhere between the two. The Emma Okto Nojs sounds fantastic in the YouTube demo's too.

[CameronJ]

I reckon the Okto Nøjs is my most frequently stomped pedal at the moment. Both of its circuits are just fantastic. But please, nobody else buy one. I'm the only one on Basschat with these toanz right now

[lee650]

That Okto Nøjs is one fantastic sounding pedal! Thanks for putting it on the radar. Ive tried many octaves and curren

[lee650]

That Okto Nøjs is one fantastic sounding pedal! Thanks for putting it on the radar. Ive tried many octaves and currently using an OC2. I'm seriously gassing for a COG T65 after enjoying the T16! I like the idea of the dirty octave up as well as the loop. As I understand,I should be able to put my fuzz/OD in the loop and the octave will be clean underneath,instead of a fuzzed octave sound! (Please correct me if I'm wrong) I'm even thinking of selling the OC2 to fund one! That may be a bit hasty though

Edited September 15, 2017 by lee650

[CameronJ]

Yeah I'm pretty sure that's how the FX loop works on the T65. Having that separation between octave and dirt signals can be really useful. I run a parallel loop on my board with a DOD Meatbox for that exact purpose. It's tasty.

Edited September 15, 2017 by CameronJ

[Quatschmacher]

[quote name='CameronJ' timestamp='1505482672' post='3372275']
Yeah I'm pretty sure that's how the FX loop works on the T65. Having that separation between octave and dirt signals can be really useful. I run a parallel loop on my board with a DOD Meatbox for that exact purpose. It's tasty.
[/quote]

I should be able to do this with my LS2. I can also get a half-way-house effect by running my octaver into my distortion pedal (which has separate wet and dry knobs) so I can get clean octave and dirty octave.

[CameronJ]

Yeah an LS2 will do it. I got the idea from Roey Haviv on YouTube and he used an LS2 in his video.

[lee650]

Note to self!! Get an LS2 they seem so handy

Edited September 15, 2017 by lee650