Can a promoter sell our live performance?

[Grangur]

Just a thought: if a punter was in the audience, they could have recorded you and posted it on YouTube and there's not much you can do. I guess the difference here is the promoter wants to take money for the bootleg recordings.

The other difference is, course, he's recorded the whole gig.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Grangur

[oggiesnr]

Any lyrics or music that are saved on computer will also have a whole series of dates attached to the files that can also be used to verify creation dates.

[BigRedX]

To the OP- are you a member of the PRS?

[Wolverinebass]

I fail to see why anyone is advocating any form of gentleness with this. Unless the issue is in the small print of the contract, the bloke is robbing them and should be stood on in any legal way to stop him doing it though I'd imagine saying something at the gig would be easier in this situation the second this clown came off stage.

[PaulWarning]

I tend to put a demo of any of my songs onto soundcloud in case of any copyright issues then register it with the PRS, not sure if this covers all the basses (see what I did there ) or not

[Muppet]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1488048353' post='3245432']
To the OP- are you a member of the PRS?
[/quote]

Yes, sir

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Muppet' timestamp='1488055568' post='3245535']
Yes, sir
[/quote]

Excellent, and I take it you have already submitted a set list for the gig in question?

As a PRS member you can also get performance royalties form any YouTube videos that might get posted by members of the audience. Also through your record label (or more likely Aggregator if you don't have a major record label deal) you can either get YouTube performance videos you don't approve of taken down, or alternative cover in ads which you take a share of.

BTW what is happening with your original problem?

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1488050753' post='3245465']
I tend to put a demo of any of my songs onto soundcloud in case of any copyright issues then register it with the PRS, not sure if this covers all the basses (see what I did there ) or not
[/quote]

Until you pointed it out - no. Heeheehee.

Regards

[Muppet]

Singer has asked MU for their view and was contacting the promoter for it was she that booked the gig. I'm catching up with her this afternoon so I'll find out the score. Thanks for all the advice!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Muppet' timestamp='1488111931' post='3245875']
Singer has asked MU for their view and was contacting the promoter for it was she that booked the gig. I'm catching up with her this afternoon so I'll find out the score. Thanks for all the advice!
[/quote]

And?

[JamesBass]

So, has there been an outcome?

[Muppet]

Nothing from the MU as yet - but we have emailed the promoter letting him know that we would prefer him not to publish the recordings as this may compromise our album launch. We have offered to let him use a showreel of the songs (30s or so) but that we've not granted him permission to sell them.

We're trying the polite friendly approach first to see if that bears fruit. We don't want to appear heavy handed if it's not required.

[BigRedX]

Is the gig recording actually available to buy at the moment?

[Muppet]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1488274693' post='3247367']
Is the gig recording actually available to buy at the moment?
[/quote]

No not yet, which is why we thought we'd try a more friendly approach. If he ends up publishing and charging then we're in to a different phase.

[ambient]

[quote name='Downdown' timestamp='1488035092' post='3245238']


Yes, that is a widely touted idea, but it's not so much that you APPLY for copyright because it automatically belongs to the creator of the work. The trick is to be able to PROVE you're the creator of the work, hence sending yourself a sealed letter. There will be other methods of course.
[/quote]

With modern recording and production done on a computer all the files will be dated, so proving you're the owner and creator is theoretically a lot easier nowadays.

Personally I would be very diplomatic about the whole thing. Just email them and ask them to stop.

[blue]

[quote name='Muppet' timestamp='1488024147' post='3245104']
Yes originals. I can't imagine he'll make a huge amount, but it's not really about the money, more the fact he's assumed he can do it without gaining explicit consent!
[/quote]

Over here in the States, unfortunately everything is about "the money".

Blue

[Sibob]

I always found the idea that you have to actively 'copyright' something when you create it.
You don't.
As soon as you create something, you own the copyright until you explicitly sign it away. Of course, the trick is proving that ownership. Usually that's not an issue in todays age where people demo and demo and demo. All those files would be time and date-stamped, which would hold up in court against an infringer who wouldn't be able to provide any 'work in progress' evidence.
There's obviously different levels of this, different ways of proving ownership (the CD in the post is effective in some cases, but fairly old school).

If it were me, I would simply ask the the promoter if he understands that he doesn't have permission to sell your songs (especially seeing as he didn't ask permission to make the recording in the first place). That said, I'd also be interested in perhaps getting hold of those recordings....if you deem them to be good enough....for extra content down the line. So asking him not to release them, giving him credit and whatever royalties are realistic (I don't know how popular your band is), and you release them at your discretion.

Si

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Muppet' timestamp='1488275808' post='3247398']
No not yet, which is why we thought we'd try a more friendly approach. If he ends up publishing and charging then we're in to a different phase.
[/quote]

Does the promoter already have previous live gigs up on his web site?

IME although they eventually come up with the goods, the MU's legal advice runs at comparatively glacial speeds, especially when you are dealing with the immediacy of the on-line world.

So if possible I'd be finding out now who runs his web hosting and his payments and be ready to hit them with DMCA takes down notices just in case the friendly approach doesn't work or is ignored.

However as more time goes by and the recordings haven't appeared anywhere, I'd be slightly less worried. If he doesn't have them up before the end of the week I would have thought anyone in the audience who was interested in buying them will have forgotten all about it.

[Downdown]

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1488288862' post='3247546']
Of course, the trick is proving that ownership. Usually that's not an issue in todays age where people demo and demo and demo. All those files would be time and date-stamped, which would hold up in court against an infringer who wouldn't be able to provide any 'work in progress' evidence.
[/quote]

Probably a bit pedantic, but the date and time stamp of digital files could be altered fairly easily. I wonder if this method of 'proof' has ever been tested in court?

[Grangur]

Have you tried speaking to the other acts from that night? After all, you're not the only act in that same boat.

If you need to take action you could possibly share the legal costs.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1488309412' post='3247808']
Have you tried speaking to the other acts from that night? After all, you're not the only act in that same boat.

If you need to take action you could possibly share the legal costs.
[/quote]

Which is why I suggested the DMCA take down route as there are no costs involved.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Muppet' timestamp='1488273946' post='3247352']
Nothing from the MU as yet - but we have emailed the promoter letting him know that we would prefer him not to publish the recordings as this may compromise our album launch. We have offered to let him use a showreel of the songs (30s or so) but that we've not granted him permission to sell them.

We're trying the polite friendly approach first to see if that bears fruit. We don't want to appear heavy handed if it's not required.
[/quote]

I assume you have no agent other than the promoter?

Well done. It ALWAYS pays to be diplomatic in the first instance. If the promoter is reasonable and you have done nothing to impede what might be a profitable solution for you [i]and[/i] the promoter then things can move forward. It might be that the promoter is in a good position to help the band grow.

He'd have to respect your album release though. Talk about having your "golden goose" and eating it. Remember Daft Punk and Nile Rodgers' release of Random Access Memories was usurped. These days, even the big players have difficulty locking down the release of their product despite all the rules.

If reasonable attempts have been made to negotiate an amicable settlement, as you are describing here, but the promoter is not prepared to wait or at least discuss a workable compromise then I'd say it is time to seek legal advice with a view to;[list]
[*]claiming back potential loss of earnings for the band
[*]seeking redress for any damage to the band's reputation as a result of an unofficial release or the perceived poor behaviour of the promoter generally
[*]getting a signed agreement that the promoter will not attempt to do this again to [i]any[/i] performer that he handles
[/list]
If you do however, have you thought how it may affect the band and its ability to move forward? That is the crunch. You may have to let it go or run the risk of the promoter and his associates turning their back on you with regard to future bookings. The old Hollywood expression springs to mind: "I'll see to it that your boys never work in this town again!"

Is he one of those?

I have a nasty taste in my mouth just thinking about it. I wish you and everyone concerned a fruitful, civilised settlement.

Six minutes into this moral tale there is a message relevant to your plight.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyeEvG8zqPY[/media]
The author apologises unreservedly for suggesting that the band is [i]fowl[/i] or has anything to do with [i]fowl[/i] play of any description. Other opinions are available.

Edited March 1, 2017 by SpondonBassed

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1488287900' post='3247531']
Over here in the States, unfortunately everything is about "the money".

Blue
[/quote]

I don't know how litigious American society actually is but media (mainly film and TV) tends to paint a picture of a society where lawyers are the "go to" first step in many disputes. Whether or not that is the case it seems to be going that way here. Solicitors are the only winners in any given dispute.

I think greed has become a greater driving force here in the UK than ever before. Everyone wants a cut but no one wants to pay for their slice of pie.

Sad.

[TimR]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1488352732' post='3248071']


I don't know how litigious American society actually is but media (mainly film and TV) tends to paint a picture of a society where lawyers are the "go to" first step in many disputes. Whether or not that is the case it seems to be going that way here. Solicitors are the only winners in any given dispute.

I think greed has become a greater driving force here in the UK than ever before. Everyone wants a cut but no one wants to pay for their slice of pie.

Sad.
[/quote]

That's just the media though.

Those no win no fee solicitors are quite particular who they take on.

Real solicitors usually outline exactly how much a case is likely to cost and the likelihood of winning during the first (paid) consultation. A solicitors letter is cheap, following up on your threats isn't.

Try and sort out any problems amicably.

Edited March 1, 2017 by TimR

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1488378145' post='3248403']
That's just the media though.

Those no win no fee solicitors are quite particular who they take on.

Real solicitors usually outline exactly how much a case is likely to cost and the likelihood of winning during the first (paid) consultation. A solicitors letter is cheap, following up on your threats isn't.

Try and sort out any problems amicably.
[/quote]they can egg up the likelihood of winning though so they get the gig