BigRedX Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1481373149' post='3191817'] CD easily outperfoms vinyl? Depends on what you're listening to them on! My Advantage cd player rarely sounds as good as my Clearaudio/SME/AudioNote/EAR vinyl set-up... [/quote] Have you done a back-to-back listen of the same album on CD and vinyl where you know that each version has been specially mastered to make the most of its respective delivery medium? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='ians' timestamp='1481379723' post='3191873'] Can't see the point at all as vinyl only sounds good if the recording process is 100% analogue. Simply pressing out vinyl thats had a digi signal thrown at it cant possibly sound authentic. [/quote] And these days making a record with a 100% analogue production path is near on impossible. When The Terrortones made our mini-album "The Monster Pussy Sessions" the original idea was to do something quick and dirty live in the studio and put it out on cassette. Once we started the process we decided to try and go analogue all the way. The band recorded live onto a Otari 24-track tape machine, and we limited overdubs to a few replacement vocals and theremin. This was then mixed down through an analogue desk with only analogue outboard processing on a Studer 1/4" 1/2-track tape machine. We also made a digital copy of the mix at the same time so we could take it home and listen to it straight away. It was just as well that we made this digital copy because when it came to getting the album mastered we could have supplied the analogue version, but the mastering would have been significantly more expensive to do completely in the analogue domain. And none of the cassette duplication companies we contacted would take anything other than digital files. It was much the same when it came to get our next album produced on vinyl - digital was the preferred medium for the production master. I'm sure that if we had the budget and time available it would still be possible to have a totally analogue signal path from the mics in the studio all the way to the vinyl cutting lathe, but it would involve a lot more expense and someone from the band or record label to be present at both the mastering and the cutting stages in order to approve the analogue version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1481466282' post='3192454'] I feel that those who shout loudly about how crap vinyl has always sounded have only ever heard a 20s hand-cranked gramophone with hawthorn needle and large horn, or at best a Dansette! Once you've experienced a really good vinyl system you'll know what all the fuss is about... Now I'm off to oil my beard and sculpt my man-bun. [/quote] I have a reasonably good Pro-Ject turntable (it was in the middle of the range price-wise when I bought it about 15 years ago), but in back-to-back tests it can't even compete with a CD of the same album in the DVD drive of my Mac Pro (going via the built-in TOS-Link optical out to my HiFi) for sound quality. This is my biggest beef with vinyl. I'm sure if you spend £1000+ on your vinyl playback equipment, there will be an improvement, but IMO there is something very wrong when you need to spend that much money in order to get the best out of the delivery medium for the music. With a digital file it is simply down to how good your DAC is, and as I said in my first post in this thread the gap in quality between what is now consumer grade and professional equipment is pretty small and getting smaller all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Despite the obvious advantages with CDs and digital files, I still don't listen to music 'properly' since the age of mp3s becoming a popular format. Now, I buy vinyl for the enjoyment of owning it, supporting the bands, getting a digital download code anyway, and the listening, properly, all the way through the album. It may well be a hipster topic of conversation, but then again, so are many things nowadays. One advantage is that the bands are now earning money again from selling music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1481534181' post='3192918'] Have you done a back-to-back listen of the same album on CD and vinyl where you know that each version has been specially mastered to make the most of its respective delivery medium? [/quote] I've done that on a few occasions, though I can't guarantee the mastering process! Frinstance, Bootsy's "Ultrawave" sounds lots better on vinyl, as does Nazaire's "Whose Blues"; they're the only 2 duplicates I've got. But you're right about cost; a cheap cd player is much better than a cheap record player. If you want to get the best out of vinyl you'll really need to spend well over £1k (new, that is). My phono stage alone has an rrp of £1200! But then I'm sad hifi nerd who used to spend all his money on box-swapping. Luckily I'm happy with what I've got now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1481546710' post='3193098'] I've done that on a few occasions, though I can't guarantee the mastering process! Frinstance, Bootsy's "Ultrawave" sounds lots better on vinyl, as does Nazaire's "Whose Blues"; they're the only 2 duplicates I've got. But you're right about cost; a cheap cd player is much better than a cheap record player. If you want to get the best out of vinyl you'll really need to spend well over £1k (new, that is). My phono stage alone has an rrp of £1200! But then I'm sad hifi nerd who used to spend all his money on box-swapping. Luckily I'm happy with what I've got now... [/quote] Looking at the release dates of those I doubt the Bootsy album would have been mastered in such a way as to make the best of the medium, in fact it is quite probable that the CD version was made from a second generation pre-EQ'd vinyl production master tape (as many CD back catalogue issues in the 80s were) in which case it won't be a very pleasant listening experience. The majority of music I still have on vinyl is low-budget DIY releases from the late 70s and early 80s, when the pressing quality for all but the biggest selling artists left a lot to be desired. I'm snapping up CD re-releases of these as quickly as they get produced and in every case it's an improvement on the original. I suppose if what you are buying has has a sensible recording and production budget in the first place then good quality vinyl will be pretty decent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1481532371' post='3192891'] Luckily, the resolution of vinyl depends on the grain size of the vinyl used, just how well the mastering engineer has carved the master disc (as well as the quality of the master), and how well the "pin" tracks the groove. If the "pin" is small enough (like my Audio Note cartridge is), the arm and cart are sufficiently isolated from outside vibrations (wall-shelf, 20kg turntable), and the RIAA decoding is accurate, a well-cut record has at least the resolution of cd, with a higher potential maximum frequency, but lower available dynamic range (not that most cds use that range, wot with loudness wars). And it also has the advantage of not being a torch dragged across a lumpy plastic disc! [/quote] Just how good is vinyl production these days anyway? My impression from being on the production side of the fence is that a lot of the people involved are having to re-learn almost forgotten skills. There are very few production plants anywhere in the world at the moment, and as you say a lot of it is down to the skill of the cutting engineer, so who/where are the new big names in vinyl cutting with the reputations of George Peckham, or Denis Blackham? I was lucky enough for my very first record release back in 1980 to be a "Porky Prime Cut". He certainly worked wonders to make my band's tinny lo-fi offering sound good enough to attract the attention of John Peel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 I like cassettes.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1481548127' post='3193119'] Looking at the release dates of those I doubt the Bootsy album would have been mastered in such a way as to make the best of the medium, in fact it is quite probable that the CD version was made from a second generation pre-EQ'd vinyl production master tape (as many CD back catalogue issues in the 80s were) in which case it won't be a very pleasant listening experience. The majority of music I still have on vinyl is low-budget DIY releases from the late 70s and early 80s, when the pressing quality for all but the biggest selling artists left a lot to be desired. I'm snapping up CD re-releases of these as quickly as they get produced and in every case it's an improvement on the original. I suppose if what you are buying has has a sensible recording and production budget in the first place then good quality vinyl will be pretty decent. [/quote] As you say, it has to be done right! I've got lots of old Porky's Prime Cuts singles - most of which weren't exactly serious hifi quality. But then I much prefer lo-fidelity good music than hi-fidelity sh*te! Saying that, I find good vinyl to sound better than good cd... As for the art of vinyl mastering, there's quite a lot of good ones about. There's the legendary Howie Weinberg at Masterdisc, then there's young hipsters like this chap: https://www.cnet.com/news/mastering-engineer-says-the-lp-is-the-most-accessible-high-resolution-music-format/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1481550050' post='3193145'] I like cassettes.... [/quote] Mini Disc ! Edited December 12, 2016 by fleabag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted December 12, 2016 Author Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1481550050' post='3193145'] I like cassettes.... [/quote]I've got several hundred of them with recorded radio programmes on them (they were great for that, well that's all we had) it's a right pain in the arse transferring them into mp3's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1481560750' post='3193296'] I've got several hundred of them with recorded radio programmes on them (they were great for that, well that's all we had) it's a right pain in the arse transferring them into mp3's [/quote] I've got a big box full of demo recordings of Nottingham bands from the 80s and 90s on cassette. I'm about half way through getting them all converted into uncompressed AIFF files. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted December 12, 2016 Author Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1481560969' post='3193298'] I've got a big box full of demo recordings of Nottingham bands from the 80s and 90s on cassette. I'm about half way through getting them all converted into uncompressed AIFF files. [/quote]if the quality's anything like our early demo a MP3 with a bitrate of 56 would be enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectoremg Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1481548127' post='3193119'] Looking at the release dates of those I doubt the Bootsy album would have been mastered in such a way as to make the best of the medium, in fact it is quite probable that the CD version was made from a second generation pre-EQ'd vinyl production master tape (as many CD back catalogue issues in the 80s were) in which case it won't be a very pleasant listening experience. The majority of music I still have on vinyl is low-budget DIY releases from the late 70s and early 80s, when the pressing quality for all but the biggest selling artists left a lot to be desired. I'm snapping up CD re-releases of these as quickly as they get produced and in every case it's an improvement on the original. I suppose if what you are buying has has a sensible recording and production budget in the first place then good quality vinyl will be pretty decent. [/quote]This was a criticism of a lot of early cd's - eq'd for vinyl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroydiamond Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 (edited) [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1481537219' post='3192952'] This is my biggest beef with vinyl. I'm sure if you spend £1000+ on your vinyl playback equipment, there will be an improvement, but IMO there is something very wrong when you need to spend that much money in order to get the best out of the delivery medium for the music. [/quote] Sorry to say that £1000 for vinyl play back equipment is pretty much the starting point for getting to where its at, in terms of discovering the potential of this format. However audiophiles will often have as much invested in CD equipment. My CD (Primare cd32) cost the same as my vinyl playback equipment (Clearaudio concept, Dynavector 10x5, dynavector P75). For me, they both have their place Edited December 14, 2016 by leroydiamond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 [quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1481723095' post='3194547'] Sorry to say that £1000 for vinyl play back equipment is pretty much the starting point for getting to where its at, in terms of discovering the potential of this format. However audiophiles will often have as much invested in CD equipment. My CD (Primare cd32) cost the same as my vinyl playback equipment (Clearaudio concept, Dynavector 10x5, dynavector P75). For me, they both have their place [/quote] And that post to me completely sums up why I don't like HiFi. IMO there is something seriously wrong with the delivery medium when you need to spend thousands of pounds to "properly" appreciate the music on it. And I can't help but feel that you have been conned when it comes to your CD player. The important part of this system is the DAC and I simply can't believe that you are getting a better quality DAC in your CD player, than the audio interfaces used to record or transfer most of the music you are going to be listening to on it. When you can buy and RME ADI-2 Pro which is one of the best stand alone 2-channel studio converters available and does both ADC and DAC for around £500, I smell something fishy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1481724492' post='3194566'] When you can buy and RME ADI-2 Pro which is one of the best stand alone 2-channel studio converters available and does both ADC and DAC for around £500, I smell something fishy. [/quote] But does it come with a remote control milled from a solid billet of aluminium that's heavy enough to be ideal for home defence? Luckily, I only ever bought the big shiny shiny box part of hifi (which, incidentally often sounds better than studio kit - simply because it's designed to make your music sound good rather than to accurately reproduce it in glorious high fidelity!). I never fell for the more ridiculous cable lifter/RFI crystal/mains grounding end of it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigman Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 With so few operational pressing plants around these days the lead time is ridiculous compared to the way it used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroydiamond Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1481724492' post='3194566'] And that post to me completely sums up why I don't like HiFi. IMO there is something seriously wrong with the delivery medium when you need to spend thousands of pounds to "properly" appreciate the music on it. And I can't help but feel that you have been conned when it comes to your CD player. The important part of this system is the DAC and I simply can't believe that you are getting a better quality DAC in your CD player, than the audio interfaces used to record or transfer most of the music you are going to be listening to on it. When you can buy and RME ADI-2 Pro which is one of the best stand alone 2-channel studio converters available and does both ADC and DAC for around £500, I smell something fishy. [/quote] I got the CD player used for less than half the new price, so the outlay was reasonable and it sounds better than what it replaced (a 20 year old Marantz CD -63 KI signature). For sure one is entering the world of diminishing returns when you go up the food chain when it comes to CD players and there are excellent players on the market for not a lot of money. I got the same feeling when a mate of mine visited recently with a Sire Jazz bass. It compared incredibly well to my NYC Sadowsky, but came in at nearly [b]one tenth[/b] of the price. Build quality, finish, tone were terrific and really questioned the validity of the price outlay of the Sadowsky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted December 14, 2016 Author Share Posted December 14, 2016 Ah, the law of diminishing returns, there's a lot of self delusion going on, if you've paid a lot more for it it must be better, I've been as guilty as anyone, who wants to admit, especially to ourselves that we've wasted our money? one of the benefits of having less than perfect hearing is that I no longer suffer from it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 I`m glad that vinyl is selling well, our first album has just been released on both black and red vinyl, by Step 1 Records, and our second album is due to be released very soon on both black and blue vinyl, by Randale Records. Boasting time, said 2nd album has just been voted the 23rd best album of 2016 in Vive Le Rock magazine. Am I chuffed or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 [quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1481736898' post='3194729'] With so few operational pressing plants around these days the lead time is ridiculous compared to the way it used to be. [/quote] Actually even with the recent increase in production times it's still nowhere near as bad as it was back in the early 80s. My very first release on vinyl was as part of a double compilation EP with 7 other bands (each had half a side which worked out at 4 1/2 minutes of "music"). My band weren't able to get into the studio until the end of June and were the last to submit our tape which was then added to the others and the masters were cut by the legendary George Peckham a couple of weeks later. We didn't receive our share of the finished records until the week before Christmas that year. That's a lead time of around 5 months from cutting to getting the records back from the pressing plant. And that was pretty much the norm for production times for all the bands I knew who were putting out records on their own label back then. These days you should still be able to get lead times of around 5-6 weeks without having to pay a premium (so long as your release doesn't co-incide with Record Shop Day), but when a proper production run of glass-mastered CDs takes 2 weeks at the very most, it's still not particularly quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigman Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1481803799' post='3195262'] That's a lead time of around 5 months from cutting to getting the records back from the pressing plant. [/quote] In the 80s we had around 2 months max from recording to having vinyl distributed - so 2 mths for mastering and production. Mind you, the record Co might have 'pre-booked a slot' .- I dunno... We put out a 12" earler this year - it took twice as long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Back in the Day, we had huge plant like EMI Hayes pressing the latest Beatles single 24/7 That sort of capacity is just not needed now - smaller plant=longer lead time It's just the nature of the beast. Vinyl is uber-trendy at the moment, I'm watching this with interest (and a smile). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub_Drop Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 Vinyl always sounds better than digital music. So glad to hear vinyl is making a comeback and most bands now do sell vinyl on their merch stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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