Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
JPJ

Sorry, but there really is no substitute for big iron

Recommended Posts

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1477311423' post='3161260']
Not sure how this has turned into a Class D debate.

I would really, really love to do a blind hearing test on some of you lot....
[/quote]

Everything gets into a class d debate, or a BF vs the world debate, or an is it good for metal debate. There's no point living otherwise :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Merton' timestamp='1477311493' post='3161261']


Everything gets into a class d debate, or a BF vs the world debate, or an is it good for metal debate. There's no point living otherwise :D
[/quote]
;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1477311423' post='3161260']
Not sure how this has turned into a Class D debate.

I would really, really love to do a blind hearing test on some of you lot....
[/quote]

Of course it was always going to... the Thread title points it that way as class D is an option in many amps available today and the OP was saying his amp is the best.
And the SM1500 was one hell of an amp..all the SM's were upto a certain period. They don't make them like they used to :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477316099' post='3161332']
Of course it was always going to... the Thread title points it that way as class D is an option in many amps available today and the OP was saying his amp is the best.[/quote]

I wouldn't be so bold to make that claim as there are too many amps that I haven't gigged (the only real test imho). My point was simply that I was surprised by the difference, and maybe in hindsight I shouldn't have been. I think I've posted the photo of the innards of the SM1500 before and its basically two massive toroidal transformers, hence the weight and my non-techy 'big iron' comment.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477316099' post='3161332']And the SM1500 was one hell of an amp..all the SM's were upto a certain period. They don't make them like they used to :lol:
[/quote]

Agreed!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The spec of SM amps was always considered high or OTT. That is one reason I still have the SM400 dating around 1990.

I do have a class D amp..and it is pretty good but it can't complete with my big block of Iron.
Have I tried them all..no..just the popular ones that top out at around £600 so typically what appears here quite a lot but I'm not aware of any game changers as yet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup i'm with you on this one. It's gonna take one hell of an amp to knock the SVT2 off its perch. I honestly dont think it will come as people are happy to compromise for the weight saving and manufacturers clearly know this so will continue to build them like this.

Stick a power stage out of the new Crown Macro-Tech I series in one and then we will talk and i will continue to use my muscles :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no substitute for serious power supplies. The lightweight switchmode one in my QSC PLX 3002 allows that power amp to put out enough real power to demolish an SM1500 - but it's still a 21lb 2U power amp, it isn't the side and weight of a paperback book!

My previous power amp weighed twice as much and had a big iron power transformer - it was feeble compared to the SMPS driven QSC.

There's a 'law' in cycling known as Bontrager's law - "Cheap. Strong. Light. Pick any two!" That pretty much holds true for bass amps and power amps, if strong equals having Real Power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ha ha, I love these type of threads. The OP was comparing his SM vs his AG500, my response was based on my own experience with the AG vs the Mesa. Then lots of D Class sucks talk, and some NOOO, D Class is good, especially if it is made in Finland and finally (several people) sense that the reason most D Class amps sound feeble in certain conditions is due to the quality of the power supply.

Loving it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='HazBeen' timestamp='1477328742' post='3161476']
Ha ha, I love these type of threads. The OP was comparing his SM vs his AG500, my response was based on my own experience with the AG vs the Mesa. Then lots of D Class sucks talk, and some NOOO, D Class is good, especially if it is made in Finland and finally (several people) sense that the reason most D Class amps sound feeble in certain conditions is due to the quality of the power supply.

Loving it!
[/quote]

You seem to have brought Finnish Class D in all by yourself.

It's entertaining to read what goes on in people's heads, for sure!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest bassman7755

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1477311423' post='3161260']
Not sure how this has turned into a Class D debate.

I would really, really love to do a blind hearing test on some of you lot....
[/quote]

Yeah it had crossed my mind, I have 3 class d amps, a QSC 1.6Kw PA amp and a marshall DBA amp, would be interesting to record the same signal into all of them and see if anyone could tell them apart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1477330415' post='3161498']


You seem to have brought Finnish Class D in all by yourself.

It's entertaining to read what goes on in people's heads, for sure!!
[/quote]

I have to admit, that was poetic license at work..... ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Ashdown doesn't use the ICE power module , it is a much bigger thing they use.
I'm not saying too much about big iron versus class D...got accused of imagining things last time..!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The colouring of SWR amps definitely sounds good with bright sounding basses in my experience. For example, adding some girth to graphite necked instruments. The Hughes and Kettner Base 600 head I tried couple of years back did the same thing - not common but great sound. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/35922-hughes-and-kettner-bass-base-600-head/"]One was for sale on here many years ago too.[/url] I suspect it's a little lighter than an SM1500...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest bassman7755

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1477325961' post='3161449']
There's no substitute for serious power supplies. The lightweight switchmode one in my QSC PLX 3002 allows that power amp to put out enough real power to demolish an SM1500 - but it's still a 21lb 2U power amp, it isn't the side and weight of a paperback book!

My previous power amp weighed twice as much and had a big iron power transformer - it was feeble compared to the SMPS driven QSC.

There's a 'law' in cycling known as Bontrager's law - "Cheap. Strong. Light. Pick any two!" That pretty much holds true for bass amps and power amps, if strong equals having Real Power.
[/quote]

The weight in the PLX range is I believe down to the heatsinks required for the class H power section (which is a multi rail class AB ) , not the PSU. The latest QSC amps are class D and presumably use just as a good a PSU and are much lighter. The point being that it must be possible to weigh in under 10 lbs with the same "umf" - assuming that those later amps as as good as the PLX.

Edited by bassman7755

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The real problem lies with the JET (Jargon Enhanced Topic) becoming such an ARE (acronym rich environment) leading to excessive pressure on the RSBT (Repeated Subject Boredom Threshold).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an AG500 which I love but to get the best out of it I have a pre-amp pedal (MXR Bass DI+) in front of it - although funnily enough not to to add 'heft' or lows (I feel the Head has plenty already) but to add a bit of sparkle to the highs.

So I'd have to agree that I did feel the Aguilar had a certain something missing at first. My quest to fix that with other pedals that did also add lows (mainly Aphex Bass Xciter) have actually lead to a dead speaker in one of my cabs as you can see in my current thread on here. Turns out that missing something for me was crisper highs than the amp's own EQ was giving. Adding those highs with the pre-amp pedal seems to have allowed the rest of the frequencies more room to breath somehow (if that makes any sense).
Anyhow, I'd put the sound that I had in last weekend's soundcheck (just before the speaker died :() up against any other 'big iron' rig I've owned and still be smiling so for me anything lacking in that head was just down to EQ not the power section - IMHO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1477376082' post='3161744']
The real problem lies with the JET (Jargon Enhanced Topic) becoming such an ARE (acronym rich environment) leading to excessive pressure on the RSBT (Repeated Subject Boredom Threshold).
[/quote]

Okay, that made me smile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1477325961' post='3161449']
There's no substitute for serious power supplies. The lightweight switchmode one in my QSC PLX 3002 allows that power amp to put out enough real power to demolish an SM1500 - but it's still a 21lb 2U power amp, it isn't the side and weight of a paperback book!

My previous power amp weighed twice as much and had a big iron power transformer - it was feeble compared to the SMPS driven QSC.

There's a 'law' in cycling known as Bontrager's law - "Cheap. Strong. Light. Pick any two!" That pretty much holds true for bass amps and power amps, if strong equals having Real Power.
[/quote]

Spot on Alex. Keith Bontrager's right and his saying applies to much more than cycling componentry. in the case of amplification, you can't beat a stiff (oooer) power supply. I have two old RSE power amps that deliver serious poke. Look inside and you find a high quality toroid and reservoir caps the size of bean tins. The larger one easilybetters my QSC RMX1450, despite a similar power rating. Can't be a coincidence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1477307170' post='3161201']
Settle down - 'car radio amps' is my tongue-in-cheek name for the micro crowd that use the ICE module.

That the same modules are also used by charvas in their cars is just coincidence :-)
[/quote]

It would be a coincidence if it were true. But the ICEpower modules used in bass amps are power amps with an integrated power supply made to run on 120V/230V AC mains supplies, and car audio gear is made to run on a 12V or 24V DC battery supply. So I'd hazard a guess that the same modules are not being used in car audio. There are ICEpower modules used for that purpose, but they're not the same series.

Edited by Beer of the Bass

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1477391795' post='3161868']
It would be a coincidence if it were true. But the ICEpower modules used in bass amps are power amps with an integrated power supply made to run on 120V/230V AC mains supplies, and car audio gear is made to run on a 12V or 24V DC battery supply. So I'd hazard a guess that the same modules are not being used in car audio.
[/quote]

OK - I'm learning stuff here. Still don't like it :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So... the OP changed from a 500W AG500 to a 1500W SM1500 and felt more "heft"? And people are saying is due to the toroidal transformer? And the extra headroom from having 3 times the power output doesn't play a part here? In that case my class-D Shuttle 9.2 is more "heftier" then the toroidal equipped 15W TE Boxer combo i have or the 280W GK RB400iv i had... ;)

We shouldn't mix things, we all know that a 500W toroidal amp, compared to a 500W SMPS, has more sub-lows (great for those who like it, i'm very happy without a muddy stage sound) and the greater the power output of an amp more headroom is available. So what's the news about the SM1500 sounding better? Even the SM900 would beat the c**p out of the Aggie. The SM400 would be a better comparison, both in the same muscle rank, the tone would be decisive factor there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[attachment=230752:ABM100 build.jpg][quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1477305715' post='3161185']
Still a class D though, which is the essential thrust of this thread... And given Ashdowns reluctance to release specs with any useful detail it's hard to make any real comparisons.. Or it's reviewed by someone with access to instrumentation like the guys as BassGear mag online..

Fancy popping the lid off you ABM1000 and taking some photos?
[/quote]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='skychaserhigh' timestamp='1477349722' post='3161706']
The Ashdown doesn't use the ICE power module , it is a much bigger thing they use.
I'm not saying too much about big iron versus class D...got accused of imagining things last time..!
[/quote]

Correct - it's an abletec unit. The ALC1000 to be precise. I have an ABM1000 and it's an absolute monster. And weighs less than 10kg.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...