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gareth

Playing for Nowt?

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[quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1481289385' post='3191252']
And my disagreement is also about the realism of the fee. Small places can only pay small fees. JTUK [b]would argue that they should not be having music anyway, it should all be regulated by licences[/b] and if your venue doesn't hold 200 people so you can pay a grand for a band (see what I did there?) you should not be able to put on music. Well balls to that. How is anyone ever going to get started and grow a band, then, and hone their act? I agree that undercutting to get a gig at someone else's expense is poor form indeed, and should be frowned upon (from a great height) but I struggle to see how that happens in the market of pubs and clubs. Sure, if you have a regular once a moth residency I could see how that might happen, but we play most places no more than three times a year, and I suspect that that is how most of us work. If you go lose a residency like that I can see it would be really annoying, but I'd be interested to know how often that really happens.
Most pro's I know play small gigs for not much money as long as they don't think the urine is being extracted. Case in point: a very good pro bass player I know is doing a friends full on combined 60th and his daughters 21st soon with her very good function band for what I'm sure will be a very good fee. She has also appeared at venues I play at with a couple of other small bands this year, and been on the same bill as me at a small festival gig. None of those gigs pay much, but she has never complained to me about it. She knows they are what they are - you either do them or you don't.
[/quote]

Ideally, yes, but this idea is often undermined by bands themselves. You can try self-regulation or you can enforce it. The only real movement to enforce it would be from the taxman and/or Health and Safety concerns, I'd say. Plenty of musicians would want it, but know it is pretty futile to fight against it, it isn't worth the money to get upset about it...and tbf, they benefit from low paid gigs anyway..in that they rock up and just play. It is a pretty easy gig for £xx cash on the night. So, I am pretty realistic about the chances of it getting any regulation..ie. zip..!
but, Ideally... music would be valued more than it is..and decent rates would be paid.
Obviously, the market to suffer would be the lower end and we'd have to live with that..


As for getting a start... join a function band asap :lol: If you are lucky, it will be a great place to start and teaches you loads. It would probably give you enough discipline to avoid a hell of a lot of the issues that make threads here these days.. :lol: Like volume, front person, reading an audience, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

Edited by JTUK

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[quote name='Downdown' timestamp='1481300962' post='3191382']
I've certainly not been on other forums where such an essentially pointless debate has been allowed to rumble on for so long - but maybe that's a USP for Basschat :)
[/quote]

It's what we do.

Anyhow, welcome to the forum - may your days here be happy ones :)

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[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1481231688' post='3190900']
It's nonsense guys. Trying to derail the thread with cries of hypocrite is pointless. If that's the best argument you have I think it's quite sad
[/quote]

If we're honest, this whole thread has become nonsense....

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[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1481295336' post='3191319']
Does the "low fee hobbyists are killing industry" idea apply to Am Dram ? I've got one in my village hall
[/quote]
Yeah, you might think of them as being "not real actors".

I hope the band playing music for them are charging otherwise you may have opened an even bigger can of worms

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[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1481285959' post='3191200']
I certainly have no problem with paying paid to use a skill I have developed over many years, especially where it is enhancing somebody else's business.

And to be clear, I agree with Tim that undercutting other bands by playing pubs for free or below market value is poor form and devalues musicians & live music generally. I just disagree with him on what is a realistic market value for a pub gig fee.
[/quote]

Yeah, some of this stuff gets way to intense.

I have invested decades apon decades into this. For me it's simple;

"It's easy, I'm still having fun and yes I play for a fee. This all I've ever wanted to do."

Blue

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[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1481303028' post='3191400']

Obviously, the market to suffer would be the lower end and we'd have to live with that..


As for getting a start... join a function band asap :lol: If you are lucky, it will be a great place to start and teaches you loads. It would probably give you enough discipline to avoid a hell of a lot of the issues that make threads here these days.. :lol: Like volume, front person, reading an audience, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.
[/quote]

Which is great, except that the vast majority are in that bottom layer.....but that's OK because you've got an all star band with the pick of the pro's in your area and a giant tour bus.
Still, no-one said that life is fair. Except that the unfairness, as you see it is towards your direction at the moment, but as that seems to be from the majority towards the minority, I think you're right, it won't change. Thank the Lord.

And as for the function band start - yeah, I can just see Billy the teenage Wannabe Rock Star (and I'm not denigrating him, he may well make it and we've all got to have aspirations) turning to his mates he's played with since school and saying; "I know we've got a really good Rock/Garage/Post Punk/Hardcore/Rap thing going, but I'm off to try my hand at the Masonic Lodge function band circuit 'cos that's where it's at, boys" rather than "Shall i see if I can blag us a gig in the Dog and Duck and we'll get all our mates to come?". But of course, in your world there'd be no Dog and Duck gig. What a dull world that would be. Thank the Lord (again!) that it will (hopefully) never happen.

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[quote name='ROConnell' timestamp='1481288736' post='3191240']


Lovely story, I think for me also the appreciation of the 'art' is what makes it worthwhile, and a sometimes pay check is an extra incentive!
[/quote]

We'rere all different. I'm out there in the gigging trenches every weekend. However, nothing I do has anything to do with art.

Blue

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[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1481308900' post='3191452']


Become?
[/quote]
Well it's been nonsense for some time, apart from some interesting points hidden amongst unrealistic scenarios and snobbery.

There will never be a joined up thinking whilst people put down others opinions and get pissy when they retaliate... But such is the nature of forums.

But what do I know....

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[quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1481309399' post='3191461']
Which is great, except that the vast majority are in that bottom layer.....but that's OK because you've got an all star band with the pick of the pro's in your area and a giant tour bus.
Still, no-one said that life is fair. Except that the unfairness, as you see it is towards your direction at the moment, but as that seems to be from the majority towards the minority, I think you're right, it won't change. Thank the Lord.

And as for the function band start - yeah, I can just see Billy the teenage Wannabe Rock Star (and I'm not denigrating him, he may well make it and we've all got to have aspirations) turning to his mates he's played with since school and saying; "I know we've got a really good Rock/Garage/Post Punk/Hardcore/Rap thing going, but I'm off to try my hand at the Masonic Lodge function band circuit 'cos that's where it's at, boys" rather than "Shall i see if I can blag us a gig in the Dog and Duck and we'll get all our mates to come?". But of course, in your world there'd be no Dog and Duck gig. What a dull world that would be. Thank the Lord (again!) that it will (hopefully) never happen.
[/quote]

The function band thing is exactly what I did at that age. The guys I was playing with..who were probably more advanced never got out the bedroon as far as I know. So yes, I went that way because I wanted to gig. I was in two function bands by the time I was 20 and it taught me an awful lot. Not so much playing, but about the 'business' side and the fact that a band is a team. You are only as good as your weakest part and you work hard to cover that. But...also...people in bands need to understand what people like about them, or want to go and see. It doesn't so much matter what that actually is, as long as you recognise it and develop it. It is ultimately no use what so ever pursuing something that doesn't work as you end up playing to empty places and the whole exercise is dispiriting unless you are oblivious to your 'worth'... and I don't always mean financially.

If people aren't buying what you are selling...then look at why. And if you don't do that, you probably wont deserve a gig anyway.

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[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1481311653' post='3191487']


The function band thing is exactly what I did at that age. The guys I was playing with..who were probably more advanced never got out the bedroon as far as I know. So yes, I went that way because I wanted to gig. I was in two function bands by the time I was 20 and it taught me an awful lot. Not so much playing, but about the 'business' side and the fact that a band is a team. You are only as good as your weakest part and you work hard to cover that. But...also...people in bands need to understand what people like about them, or want to go and see. It doesn't so much matter what that actually is, as long as you recognise it and develop it. It is ultimately no use what so ever pursuing something that doesn't work as you end up playing to empty places and the whole exercise is dispiriting unless you are oblivious to your 'worth'... and I don't always mean financially.

If people aren't buying what you are selling...then look at why. And if you don't do that, you probably wont deserve a gig anyway.
[/quote]

I always say, being good or being an advanced player is only 1 skill set.

Knowing how to be in a band and understanding your role in a band is a different set of skills

Blue

Edited by blue

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[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1481311653' post='3191487']

If people aren't buying what you are selling...then look at why. And if you don't do that, you probably wont deserve a gig anyway.
[/quote]

But they are buying what I and lots of others like me are selling - at our price point. The fact that my band and lots more like it are busy enough proves it. It might not be your bag, but that's OK with us, because we don't want to do what you do. However, you don't feel that there is enough of a market for you doing what you do at the price point you want, so your "solution" is to regulate things so we can't do what we do at the price point we do it, so that the only option is folks like you at your end of the market. And I think that's just wrong on many levels. As others have said, if you really are [u]that[/u] good you should have no difficulty picking up enough well paid work not to have to worry about us. The truth, however, may be that you think you deserve better paid gigs or more of them than you can get, and are simply looking for someone to blame: "it's all because those pesky weekenders are spoiling my market with their gigs at the Dog and Duck. If it wasn't for them, all those people would be only too happy to fork out £15.00 a ticket to come and see us at the megabar in town and we could play there every week and earn great money" One word, slightly old fashioned but it fits, Poppycock.

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My own opinion is that I'd rather have a pub put on live music and pay £250 than not put on live music at all. There may be plenty of venues putting on live music briefly but by no means all of them stay the distance, so there's definitely more bands out there of reasonable quality than there are bookings to be had.

As far as undercutting goes - one of my bands was told that some other band would do a gig for £100. We said fine, let them do it. The other band (as far as we know) didn't know that there was anyone else who might do the gig, so weren't charging a stupidly low price because they were trying to under cut - they were just another ceilidh band who hadn't realised that there's good money to be made playing diddly-diddly. That's the only occasion in four decades or so that I've encountered anything like undercutting.

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After a good few years run I gave up being a weekend warrior some years previous. We progressed from pub's to Working Men's Clubs to weddings and functions and local festivals.

The level of commitment to the band becomes the more as the gigs get bigger and the venues more prestigious. The money starts to become worthwhile as income rather than just petrol/hobby expenses.

To me, there was that jump from hobby to "we've got to put a proper show together", proper playlist, backup gear, stage dress, advertising, website, do we need an agency? Everyone needed to be on board.This is when other commitments, family and work etc may clash. It's semi-pro time now and a different mind-set. It's also a good idea to get the support of wives/partners/parents too.

To my mind the 2 camps don't really compete for money. The amateur, weekend warrior enjoys a hobby with friends and the cash is a token payment towards costs. It's relatively stress free compared to the semi-pro when the individual aspirations of each member come to the fore.

As for the professional musician I know less but only know how good you need to be and imagine how hard it must be to carve a career. I admire your skill and determination but I don't envy you. It's got to be tough for the many.

So, I don't think the pro's need fear the weekend warriors who play for pleasure and little reward. And the semi-pro's are only one step behind.

There is naturally a progression path but the milestones are often unclear and where you choose to make camp along that path will dictate the amount of competition involved.

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After 62 pages all I want to know is, Where is this "Dog and Duck " pub that puts on so many bands ? :ph34r:

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[quote name='Raymondo' timestamp='1481368719' post='3191780']
After 62 pages all I want to know is, Where is this "Dog and Duck " pub that puts on so many bands ? :ph34r:
[/quote]

Don't know. It's a great pub though. Only 20minutes drive away, always pays £250 as a minimum and only wants you to play for an hour and a half.

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[quote name='Raymondo' timestamp='1481368719' post='3191780']
After 62 pages all I want to know is, Where is this "Dog and Duck " pub that puts on so many bands ? :ph34r:
[/quote]

It's just up the road from The Tickled Trout.

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[quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1481325830' post='3191615']
But they are buying what I and lots of others like me are selling - at our price point. The fact that my band and lots more like it are busy enough proves it. It might not be your bag, but that's OK with us, because we don't want to do what you do. However, you don't feel that there is enough of a market for you doing what you do at the price point you want, so your "solution" is to regulate things so we can't do what we do at the price point we do it, so that the only option is folks like you at your end of the market. And I think that's just wrong on many levels. As others have said, if you really are [u]that[/u] good you should have no difficulty picking up enough well paid work not to have to worry about us. The truth, however, may be that you think you deserve better paid gigs or more of them than you can get, and are simply looking for someone to blame: "it's all because those pesky weekenders are spoiling my market with their gigs at the Dog and Duck. If it wasn't for them, all those people would be only too happy to fork out £15.00 a ticket to come and see us at the megabar in town and we could play there every week and earn great money" One word, slightly old fashioned but it fits, Poppycock.
[/quote]

Fine, you have your price and you are sticking with it. Other than that, I don't recall you at any of my gigs so I very much doubt you'll know anything about them at all.

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Neither me nor anyone else, really. A long time ago Bassman Steve fro Portsmouth asked for a list so we could come and see you - never happened.

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[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1481375029' post='3191834']
It's just up the road from The Tickled Trout.
[/quote]

Now I know that The Tickled trout is just off the M6 near Preston so bugger that! ......I'm not traveling that far for a £250.00 gig ;) :P

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[quote name='Raymondo' timestamp='1481464781' post='3192441']


Now I know that The Tickled trout is just off the M6 near Preston so bugger that! ......I'm not traveling that far for a £250.00 gig ;) :P
[/quote]

There must be two then as there is one in Kent ;)

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[quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1481463438' post='3192436']
Neither me nor anyone else, really. A long time ago Bassman Steve fro Portsmouth asked for a list so we could come and see you - never happened.
[/quote]

When I'm down that way. I'll let you know.

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