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gareth

Playing for Nowt?

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[quote name='Downdown' timestamp='1480192806' post='3182463']

Sure, the real wannabe rock stars are gonna be pissed off that no one is taking their massive contribution seriously but who really cares? I'm sure the punters don't.[/quote]

That's part of the beauty of getting paid. At least at the bar band level. Most punters think we do it for free.

They can't believe anyone could be paid for having so much fun.

Other trades have been brought up to support each side of this on going discussion.

If your re-wireing a home or putting in new flooring, is that really fun?

Blue

Edited by blue

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[quote name='Downdown' timestamp='1480193069' post='3182465']


Probably because being an electrician, plumber or carpenter are sh*t jobs and no one would dream of doing them for the sheer fun of it. Playing music is completely different for most people who do it - they CHOOSE to do it for the love of it and that's reward enough. Sure, for some people that's not enough but that's no reason to berate others for their choices. Live and let live?
[/quote]

In the States those trades are considered good high paying jobs. It's the service industry jobs that carry the sh*t label.

I also say live and let live. I also say the type of gigs most blokes play for free are just that, the type of gigs you would play for free. We play State Fair every year, it's not like there are other bands playing State Fair for free because they told the owner their fee was "love". They're all getting paid money.

Blue

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I'm not hinged to either side of this argument.

Young teen bands and originals bands in many cases have to do some free gigs or not gig at all.


Blue

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1480192902' post='3182464']
Did your mate bring 3 other electricians along with him who did the work free of charge?

Blue
[/quote]No he didn`t need too. I supplied the cable and sockets etc, and he supplied the tools and know how. Seems a bit like a venue supplying the cable and sockets, and you supplying the tools and the know how, albeit there are 4 of you. If you want paying for the tools and know how, then tell the venue you want paying. If they don`t want to pay you, don`t do it. Sounds simple to me.

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[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1480194213' post='3182481']
No he didn`t need too. I supplied the cable and sockets etc, and he supplied the tools and know how. Seems a bit like a venue supplying the cable and sockets, and you supplying the tools and the know how, albeit there are 4 of you. If you want paying for the tools and know how, then tell the venue you want paying. If they don`t want to pay you, don`t do it. Sounds simple to me.
[/quote]

Agreed, it is that simple.

What is hard for me to get my head around is an owner asking a band to perform for free while he profits.

Blue

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1480194839' post='3182487']


Agreed, it is that simple.

What is hard for me to get my head around is an owner asking a band to perform for free while he profits.

Blue
[/quote] I also can not get my head around commercial entitys expecting you to play for free. Problem being, people will do it.

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There are always exceptions.

I'd play a 40 minute set opening for a famous international headliner for free.

I place a lot of value on that experience.

Questionable owners and organizers of charity and benefit events, that's another story.

Blue

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So you'd support a famous headliner for free, when they could afford to pay ,but not support a charity , isn't that upside down ?

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[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1480316644' post='3183224']
So you'd support a famous headliner for free, when they could afford to pay ,but not support a charity , isn't that upside down ?
[/quote]

Exactly.

Everyone has a threshold where they would give in, for some it would need to be the chance to show off in front of thousands of people as blue suggests but those fans still aren't your fans, at the other end of the scale we have the group of guys putting on a show in the village hall because the funds for the village doo won't stretch to a band, even a £250 local pub band. Now I think it's those scenarios that cause us to have a fifty plus page thread about it, some of those bands are playing those free gigs because those are the only gigs they'll ever get because let's be honest they are terrible, other people have a group made up of selfless people who want to do it for free, even if there are funds they'd rather play for free and pay face painters to do all the kids faces for free with their cut, brilliant and good on them but they are rare, super rare, the VAST majority of bands only playing for free are awful, I say this as someone that has been in a few!

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I noticed someone arguing against playing for free replied interested tonbassist wanted ad on the forum for a show dep with no money on offer :)

As Pete said everyone has a threshold , even blue has been honest about that.

Edited by lojo

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[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1480332203' post='3183360']
I noticed someone arguing against playing for free replied interested tonbassist wanted ad on the forum for a show dep with no money on offer :)

As Pete said everyone has a threshold , even blue has been honest about that.
[/quote]

That may have been me.

It was an am dram show, no one is getting paid. It was for one performance. It was turn up, play, go home. In my experience the band gets a token appreciation at the end of a run, are never 'expected' to play for free and are really appreciated for their efforts.

As I have said many times. Charity gigs, garden parties and village fetes are not what is being discussed here.

The wholesale expectation by profit making organisations that players will queue up for exposure is where the issue lies.

.

Edited by TimR

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Feels like it's just me and you Tim with the other royals thread also , did we bore everyone else away ?

Edited by lojo

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If the profit making organisation are offering a chance of playing in front of music industry people, then playing for free might not be too bad. If they just want you too promote their business for nothing, then it isn`t worth it. The only reason they expect people to play for nothing, is because people will do it. As there are a lot of hobby musicians around, then there will always be some. They probably won`t be asked back anywhere as they probably aren`t going to be the best band. I guess it all depends on how good you think your band are. If you are good enough to play for money, and you are getting paid elsewhere, then it isn`t really an issue is it?

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[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1480316644' post='3183224']
So you'd support a famous headliner for free, when they could afford to pay ,but not support a charity , isn't that upside down ?
[/quote]

If it's one of those charities where all vendors get paid except the musicians, then yeah no dice on that.

Keep in mind, I'm charitably but not desperate to gig. I'll support a charity but not by playing for free. I'd rather make a monetary donations, not a musical one.

Blue

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1480440283' post='3184433']


If it's one of those charities where all vendors get paid except the musicians, then yeah no dice on that.

Keep in mind, I'm charitably but not desperate to gig. I'll support a charity but not by playing for free. I'd rather make a monetary donations, not a musical one.

Blue
[/quote]

That's a fair comment

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[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1464706241' post='3061623']


Well, here's a thought. If we want to ensure that live music is valued, and stop people giving it away, then the flip side of that is that we make certain that those who do get paid to play are worthy of their hire. Maybe the public will be more willing to pay to see live music if they can be guaranteed a certain level of professionalism from those playing it. So why don't we create a law that says that only licensed performers can perform in public. To get a licence, a performer would have to pass a stringent set of exams, demonstrating the ability to sight-read fluently, show a good level of understanding of harmonic theory, counterpoint, arrangement and history of music, and perform examination pieces on their chosen instrument in a range of genres (including jazz, classical and traditional music as well as rock and pop). Those found guilty of operating a musical instrument in a public place without the proper license would have all their gear confiscated and destroyed. Serial offenders would be forced to attend a series of lectures on the importance of the Beatles in the history of popular music, and the importance of "having been there" before offering an opinion on any band or musical genre.

Any venue found guilty of permitting unlicensed performances will be bulldozed to the ground and replaced by a public garden.
Any venue with more than one noise complaint upheld against it within a five year period will be bulldozed to the ground and the owners forced to attend a series of lectures on the importance of the Beatles in the history of popular music, and the importance of "having been there" before offering an opinion on any band or musical genre.

One beneficial side-effect would be the effective elimination of all rap-"music".


There, problem solved.

Don't mention it. :D
[/quote]
Sounds like music for Nazis.:D

Edited by the boy

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This is what happens when you ask professionals to work for free. Why should we be any different in how we value our profession.
[url="https://youtu.be/essNmNOrQto"]https://youtu.be/essNmNOrQto[/url]

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[quote name='jazzyvee' timestamp='1480502911' post='3184840']
This is what happens when you ask professionals to work for free. Why should we be any different in how we value our profession.
[url="https://youtu.be/essNmNOrQto"]https://youtu.be/essNmNOrQto[/url]
[/quote]

Have you ever attended an amateur dramatic society..? Ever frequented an allotment..? Spent any time behind the counter of a charity shop..? There are many 'business models'. Some work for some types of business, but not for others. Would you give a few pounds every week to a company that may (just may...) pay you back several million pounds..? It works for the lottery folks, but seems odd to me. The examples in the video are specifically chosen to be a 'bad fit'. Great. No case to answer, I say.

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This is often a topic of debate within our rocking middle aged combo.

So long as I'm not out of pocket travelling or buying something to eat when gigging I'll play a gig that I enjoy - so its not strictly for nowt, but neither is it just for the cash.

We're booking into next year, some of the band want to play some well paid parties (that are like work) at the expense of 'budget' fun gigs that have served us well - these are the same band members who can't remember their parts and see rehearsal as 'optional'

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[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1480507821' post='3184899']


Have you ever attended an amateur dramatic society..? Ever frequented an allotment..? Spent any time behind the counter of a charity shop..? There are many 'business models'. Some work for some types of business, but not for others. Would you give a few pounds every week to a company that may (just may...) pay you back several million pounds..? It works for the lottery folks, but seems odd to me. The examples in the video are specifically chosen to be a 'bad fit'. Great. No case to answer, I say.
[/quote]

Again. The only business model there is investing in a company. The rest are hobbies or for people who have independent income.

It still stands that if you are investing money into a business you need to make sure that the business has a proper plan or you are wasting your time and money investing in it.

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... and one potential business model for the pub/club manager is to get the service required for as little as possible. Who should get the gig..? The band asking for £50 petrol money, the band asking for £250 or the band asking for £400..? Assuming that the same audience comes through the door for any of them, what does the manager do..?

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[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1480512826' post='3184978']
We know exactly what the club owner will do...and he will only do that because there are folks who think nothing of walking into a venue which will pay a fee and offer to play for free or a derisory amount. Sometimes this is through inexperience or ignorance. Sometimes not. Hobbyists deliberately undercutting or playing for free to get gigs at the expense of other (often pro) musicians is unacceptable; as is playing for free on a scene which usually pays. That's ultimately the rub here. Certain scenes don't pay or pay sporadically - most originals rock gigs etc - I don't think that's right, but it's how it is and folks have the choice to do it or not. But...if you're going into a gig which will/does pay there's a responsibility to make sure you're at least asking for the going rate paid to other musicians there.
I appreciate most folks on BC aren't pro players and many won't ever aspire to be: but a bit more of a professional outlook regarding fees and conditions amongst musicians will be beneficial for us ALL.
[/quote]

I must assume, then, that you will always use a contract with MU tarifs, and not accept gigs with lesser arrangements..? I've no problem with that, but my conditions for playing are different. I don't accept your premise that places 'should' do this or that. I leave th whole thing open to the conscience of each of the actors. I refuse the notion of there being a mandatory 'going rate'. I'll give my radishes away, too, if I feel like it. Some bands charge thousands for their performance. Good luck to 'em, if folks want to pay that. The key to is is there; if you've something that folks want to pay for, then go for it. I don't play for those reasons. I'm not going to not play just so that someone else can, and I'm not going to ask for money that I don't want, need or think is due. Our vision of things is different, that's all.

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I'm yet to hear of a gig that was going to pay MU rates for a live band but didn't because another band offered to do it for free, never not once. That for me is the real rub, even if I wanted to start offering my band out for free into pro circuit stuff I couldn't guarantee my regular work not getting in the way and ruining it, that would be the end of the person booking gigs for that venue and they'd never get enough bands to do that every week either.

The whole thing is nonsense, someone from a charity sending a handy man (woman) to fix things for a few old ladies isn't going to send a builder out of work.

Edited by stingrayPete1977

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