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gareth

Playing for Nowt?

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1468256469' post='3089629']That's good pay for a 4 hour local bar band.

Blue
[/quote] For You, Blue

hehe, this quo stuff is easy ;)

LD

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I've actually agreed to a freebie thing, it's in the bandstand in the park to entertain the queue for the V festival (im taking this as we are part of the V lineup? :D ), it will probably be terrible but it's 45 mins with no pa or lights to haul etc, I'll have a bass and a combo, nada más.

Edited by stingrayPete1977

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1468257044' post='3089638']


See, to me that's demeaning. In this scenario they not only won't pay your band.They want to mistreat you as well.

I remember in 2009 I was in an originals Band. We accepted a free veterans festival gig. When we received the email it said the band could not bring food or drink onto the grounds and that everything had to be purchased on the grounds, nothing comped.

Here's the kicker. The email said that if any band members had bottled water not purchased on the grounds the band would be escorted off the grounds.

We sent a reply saying we we're no longer interested and would not be playing their event.

My point, playing for free, that's your call your choice. Playing for free and being screwed with on top of that,that's a poor decision.


Blue
[/quote]


I get your point , bit harsh re the water I think . Anyway we are happy with what we've agreed to , I just thought the car thing in the email was funny . Think we get fed and can bring our own refreshments also :)

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I think a good gig will look after you too...
but just in case they don't or forget, put it in the intial 'quote'

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Shaking Stevens always had a clause that the band got a crate of Newcastle Brown, in addition to their fee - not at mine they didn't.........

:)

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1468257044' post='3089638']


See, to me that's demeaning. In this scenario they not only won't pay your band.They want to mistreat you as well.

I remember in 2009 I was in an originals Band. We accepted a free veterans festival gig. When we received the email it said the band could not bring food or drink onto the grounds and that everything had to be purchased on the grounds, nothing comped.

Here's the kicker. The email said that if any band members had bottled water not purchased on the grounds the band would be escorted off the grounds.

We sent a reply saying we we're no longer interested and would not be playing their event.

My point, playing for free, that's your call your choice. Playing for free and being screwed with on top of that,that's a poor decision.


Blue
[/quote]That's just taking the piss . Did you tell them why you were now declining ?

You see , me being me , I'd have been straight on the phone , and got everyone to decline en masse -shabby behaviour towards bands playing free for a great cause .

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[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1468257205' post='3089640']
For You, Blue

hehe, this quo stuff is easy ;)

[/quote]

Quo? I thought 'For you Blue' was a Beatles tune (well, Harrison really).

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[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1468262725' post='3089714']
Quo? I thought 'For you Blue' was a Beatles tune (well, Harrison really).
[/quote]Ha ! Bit of licence used: Blue For You was the Quo song !

Breaking The Rules, Again and Again :D

LD

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My position , when these event organizers are asking bands to play for free, they should be bending over backwards to make things easy for the bands, parking, food, drink etc,,,

Blue

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[quote name='E sharp' timestamp='1468262354' post='3089710']
That's just taking the piss . Did you tell them why you were now declining ?

You see , me being me , I'd have been straight on the phone , and got everyone to decline en masse -shabby behaviour towards bands playing free for a great cause .
[/quote]

No, but I wish I had as well as suggesting the other bands decline too. And telling a true vet what these low lifes were up to.

Blue

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Status Quo got to chill out on their own bus before playing while we had to make do sitting on plastic chairs in a marquee drinking some sort of cheap sparkling wine. Utter disrespect

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1468278185' post='3089855']
My position , when these event organizers are asking bands to play for free, they should be bending over backwards to make things easy for the bands, parking, food, drink etc,,,

Blue
[/quote]
This I absolutely agree with.

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Maybe it is worth nothing.

The problem is that the availability of music in so many formats and at such a range of prices does make things more difficult for people offering a premium experience to a jukebox.

With retail customers (i.e. your average punter) they're going to be looking at quality and price. Are you good enough to play at their wedding? That will be what they ask.

For a business customer (pubs, clubs, other venues/functions) you are the entertainment. You're a means to an end. You're there as an investment the business has made to bring in customers who will spend money. And as such, they must weigh up the costs against the potential returns. So their primary concern is going to be how much will it cost, and are they good enough to draw a crowd.

Can you justify the price to these customers in the face of so much competition? As noted at the very start of the thread, something is only worth what somebody (or rather a representative group of people) is willing to pay for it. If that amount is £0, then it is actually worth nothing. If you find yourself struggling to justify your prices against the other offerings on the market, your price is too high. Sorry, but that's how it works.

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Up in Edinburgh, during the Fringe, a large old church in the centre of the old town (tourist central) is turned into a huge bar. Bands are then asked to play there for free (a bucket is provided :( ). There is sometimes 200 plus tourists listening to the music and spending large amounts of money buying over priced drinks. This has happened for the last 3 or 4 years.

The lease costs £20,000 per year. And the lease holders have put in flooring and disabled toilets. So there must be a sh*t load of profit to be made, out of exploiting musicians so desperate to play, that they'll play for nothing.

This year, to my eternal glee, the noise police have shut all music down, due to complaints from people who live nearby. The lease holders will now get a, very financially uncomfortable lesson, on the value of music. As nobody will bother going into an old church, to sit and buy overpriced booze, if there is no entertainment.

I feel a touch of schadenfreude coming on.

Edited by gjones

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[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1471152226' post='3110787']
Maybe it is worth nothing.

The problem is that the availability of music in so many formats and at such a range of prices does make things more difficult for people offering a premium experience to a jukebox.

With retail customers (i.e. your average punter) they're going to be looking at quality and price. Are you good enough to play at their wedding? That will be what they ask.

For a business customer (pubs, clubs, other venues/functions) you are the entertainment. You're a means to an end. You're there as an investment the business has made to bring in customers who will spend money. And as such, they must weigh up the costs against the potential returns. So their primary concern is going to be how much will it cost, and are they good enough to draw a crowd.

Can you justify the price to these customers in the face of so much competition? As noted at the very start of the thread, something is only worth what somebody (or rather a representative group of people) is willing to pay for it. If that amount is £0, then it is actually worth nothing. If you find yourself struggling to justify your prices against the other offerings on the market, your price is too high. Sorry, but that's how it works.
[/quote]
What you say is essentially true but...

Why would a landlord or whatever be prepared to put a price of £0 on live music??

We can take as a given that if having live music is not going to add to his profits he won't bother, but if he thinks that it will then he should be prepared to invest in a fee for a band in order to maximise his potential profit. The tightness of margins for pubs and the over supply of bands wanting to play live may keep this fee lower than we would like, but it is in the landlord's interest to pay the going rate to ensure that he has a successful event.

If he hires a lower quality band who are prepared to play for less (or even nothing) then he runs a very high risk of scaring away the very punters he hopes to attract by putting live music on...!

Edited by peteb

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[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1471167624' post='3110895']
Up in Edinburgh, during the Fringe, a large old church in the centre of the old town (tourist central) is turned into a huge bar. Bands are then asked to play there for free (a bucket is provided :( ). There is sometimes 200 plus tourists listening to the music and spending large amounts of money buying over priced drinks. This has happened for the last 3 or 4 years.

The lease costs £20,000 per year. And the lease holders have put in flooring and disabled toilets. So there must be a sh*t load of profit to be made, out of exploiting musicians so desperate to play, that they'll play for nothing.

This year, to my eternal glee, the noise police have shut all music down due to complaints from people who live nearby. The lease holders will now get a, very financially uncomfortable lesson, on the value of music. As nobody will bother going into an old church, to sit and buy overpriced booze, if there is no entertainment.

I feel a touch of schadenfreude coming on.
[/quote]

They've made their money, no doubt.
During one or two town festivals around here that take place over a weekend, the bar takings can be astronomical.
The pubs put in stages and P.A's and the takings for that one weekend are akin to 3 great xmas's ... and the street bars near the main stages are something else.

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[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1471178149' post='3111015']
What you say is essentially true but...

Why would a landlord or whatever be prepared to put a price of £0 on live music??

We can take as a given that if having live music is not going to add to his profits he won't bother, but if he thinks that it will then he should be prepared to invest in a fee for a band in order to maximise his potential profit. The tightness of margins for pubs and the over supply of bands wanting to play live may keep this fee lower than we would like, but it is in the landlord's interest to pay the going rate to ensure that he has a successful event.

If he hires a lower quality band who are prepared to play for less (or even nothing) then he runs a very high risk of scaring away the very punters he hopes to attract by putting live music on...!
[/quote]

Very true, and in the ideal world, bands would be fully booked all the time and be making some serious dough.

But as we're all aware, competition in the market is fierce, and that drives prices down. It's certainly not worth nothing to a business to have a decent band playing, but they're going to always try to get the most bang for their buck. And like I said - If you find yourself struggling to justify your prices, they're too high, and somebody else will get the gig.

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We're probably going over old ground, but value can be measured in more ways that just money. The fact is that many bands are willing to play for free, so the question is why? Why would anyone do anything if there is no value - to them - in doing so?

I'd suggest that every artist or band that plays for free DOES in fact get value from it. Obviously not cash, but there must be something else motivating them to want to play. Just because some people find it hard to understand why anyone would play for free or think they must therefore be exploited doesn't mean the band members are not getting value in other ways. After all, no one is forced to play for free are they?

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1468278185' post='3089855']
My position , when these event organizers are asking bands to play for free, they should be bending over backwards to make things easy for the bands, parking, food, drink etc,,,

Blue
[/quote]

Agreed,

I know there's been countless examples of the event organisers ripping off the actual acts. But I have heard some pretty bad ones, as in the promoter not actually being at the gig when the band was playing. Only came when to collect his money, which I guess is a regular occurrence. What's worse is that the venue was hard to park near nor did the venue pay for drinks for the band. Of course, they didn't get paid.

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Yes, and those sort of crappy gigs with difficult logistics are exactly the sort of ones that bands who don't care about money can afford to turn down.

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[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1471179165' post='3111031']
We're probably going over old ground, but value can be measured in more ways that just money. The fact is that many bands are willing to play for free, so the question is why? Why would anyone do anything if there is no value - to them - in doing so?

I'd suggest that every artist or band that plays for free DOES in fact get value from it. Obviously not cash, but there must be something else motivating them to want to play. Just because some people find it hard to understand why anyone would play for free or think they must therefore be exploited doesn't mean the band members are not getting value in other ways. After all, no one is forced to play for free are they?
[/quote]

Agree - There's more to it than the money motivation. I don't think any of us got into music because it was a route to riches (it certainly hasn't been for me). I've only performed live a handful of times, and I always thoroughly enjoy it. And never having taken any paid gigs, there certainly hasn't been pressure to draw a crowd. I'd love to perform a lot more, but I don't have anyone to play with, and I'm probably about as good as I was 4 years ago at this point.

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