Have we all become wimps or is it a sign of an ageing population

[largo]

It always amazes me that people put their back, shoulder, neck pain down to years of carrying heavy rigs. I think in 30 years of playing I must have played, let's say 1500 gigs and probably carried my gear for 20 days in total. 20 mins average load & unload, so that's 500 hours or just over 20 days. I've slung a bass round my neck for maybe 250 days in total, not counting rehearsals, home practice & the likes. I think ultra-lightweight basses would be the real progression in the bass playing world.

To answer the OP, in my opinion;

If by "we" you mean BC'ers then yes, I think a lot of us have "swayed" towards lightweight gear & maybe that's down to better knowledge or more likely the type of people that frequent BC.
If by "we" you mean Bass Players in general then no, I don't think weight plays as big a factor in people's decision on purchasing amp & cabs. It's what the local music shop stocks, generally that is the biggest factor.

It would be interesting to have a poll and see what % of each age group uses lightweight gear on BC.

[discreet]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1463340948' post='3050655']
It would be interesting to have a poll and see what % of each age group uses lightweight gear on BC.
[/quote]

Go on, then. I'll play.

[largo]

Not sure how these poll things work, but just posted something & we'll see how it pans out.

[discreet]

Voted!

[tonewheels]

Definitely an age thing for me.

Quite apart from having more aches and pains you tend to be wiser and realise the futility of schlepping all that gear around and are more aware of the consequences of one misjudged lift for the rest of your life. There is also the comfort thing. When I was younger I was quite happy to drive around in a Volvo Estate chosen for it's lugging capacity. Now I feel I deserve a decent rear wheel drive saloon with comfort, toys, walnut and, I'm afraid, a boot where all that crap can rattle around independently of my serene environment, the only sounds being that of the Home Service or 6Music.

And then you get to the gig, set up in a few minutes with one trip to the car and get to the bar finally ahead of that lazy bastard guitarist who is usually holding court there while watching you sweat.

And you're aware of time ticking away and the grim reaper sharpening his scythe. Only worth gigging if it doesn't cost effort and time which you could otherwise use being nice to yourself.

So, in the last year, the 1970s SVT stack with fridge has gone, replaced with Barefaced and G-K gear, the Hammond C3 with two Leslies has also gone, replaced by a Nord Electro and a lightweight PA. All I'm left with is the '64 Blackface Twin. No idea how to lightweight that though.

Not wimpy enough to obsess about guitar weight though. It's a Stingray FFS. It weighs what a Stingray weighs.

Edited May 15, 2016 by tonewheels

[zbd1960]

Backs are tricky things. Some people are fortunate and seem completely immune, no matter how daft the things they do are, and never have so much as a twinge, let alone full-blown muscle spasm and lock-up. Other people only need to glannce sideways to have things go completely to pot.

What happens to many people is that some minor act puts a couple fo vertebrae in the lower back very slightly out of alignment. This causes pressure on a nerve, which sends stabbing searing pain through your body. To protect itself, the muscles around the affected vertebrae lock-up to immobilise the affected area, This results in you becoming anywhere between 'stiff' and utterly incapable of moving without a great deal of pain.

The medical profession is generally not very good with backs. If you're lucky it will ease off itself, you may need some heat, manipulation, massage etc to help relax things and to get them back where they belong.

I put up with regular seizures during my 20s and into my 30s and eventually got fed-up with pain killers and 'bed rest' and so I paid to see an osteopath: best decision I ever made. It now rarely goes out badly and if it does cause trouble, a couple fo treatments usually sorts it out.

Of course, none of this may work for you.

So long way of saying: carrying and moving anything which is awkward - does not need ot be heavy - is a risk with backs and you can't say just because it's not a major part of what you do that it is not a risk, it is.

[inthedoghouse]

Maybe I'm in a minority here on this one. I started playing in the early 70s when gear was all heavy and there wasn't really much other option. As I've grown up (chronologically) I've never expected gear to be anything other than heavy. Perhaps I'm just lucky that I don't have the aches and pains some people do and I have no problem carrying my old Trace 4x10 cab around.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Kex' timestamp='1463212601' post='3049512']
Weight. Thats what I am taking about, when I started playing back in the late 1970s (yep, really am that ancient) bass stacks were big and heavy.

We had two transits to lug around our equipment, the PA alone took two men just to move each cab, and there were six of them.
My amp was a 4 x 10 Trace Elliot combo, at the time relatively small compared to other people 8 x 12 Marshall stacks, but it was still heavy. Very heavy, I know because until last month I still owned it.

Until recent;y i had never even considered the weight of a Bass, it was what it was, yet now I keep seeing 'how much does it weigh' in replies to adverts - OK, i am sure there are some people who have back / medical issues, but not that many surely!

Same with equipment, number if times I have seen people with small lightweight cabs kidding themselves that that 8mm chipboard ply is going to produce the same sound as 15mm marine plywood is amazing. Go and try and lift up a professional full range B&W studio monitor, or even a high end home hifi, its massively heavy and there is a reason for that.

So, whats with the weight thing, have we all become wimps
[/quote]

Back in the day when we wanted to travel to America, we'd get on a boat and spend merrily a few weeks, then unload our horses and cart and get to our destination, and nobody questioned how slow the process was. Now it's all jet here jet there... have we all become impatient?

[Ziphoblat]

[quote name='Kex' timestamp='1463212601' post='3049512']Same with equipment, number if times I have seen people with small lightweight cabs kidding themselves that that 8mm chipboard ply is going to produce the same sound as 15mm marine plywood is amazing. Go and try and lift up a professional full range B&W studio monitor, or even a high end home hifi, its massively heavy and there is a reason for that.[/quote]

Studio gear is far less likely to be getting dragged about from venue to venue. Portability is a much bigger concern for live gear. Perhaps in an ideal world a heavier speaker cabinet would perform marginally better, but how much is that worth? The gear we have now is leaps and bounds ahead of the stuff from back then because the technology has moved on.

I can get a fantastic sound from my lightweight 2x12 Barefaced (the sound in my head, no less), so why bust my balls dragging antiquated gear around?

Basses are another issue, mind you. My Warwick weighs a tonne despite the tiny body, what with it being solid Bubinga. I don't subscribe to tonewoods either, it's just that it's the only bass I've found which ticks all the boxes for me.

[DiMarco]

Thankfully there's more openminded people building lighter stuff nowadays. Neo magnet speakers, lighter yet stronger material for cabs then heavy-ass plywood etcetera.

Still I do prefer valve amps to ss be it class AB or class D but that is personal taste. Mesa made a 13kg 250w all valve monster which I happily use, because the lighter the better.

My BF 2x12 blows away any other cabs I have owned and is a lot more portable. I played through SWR, Fender, Eden and Trace Elliot 1x18, 2x15, 1x15, 4x10 and 2x12, 2x10 cabs. Often combined into 8x10, 1x15+4x10, 1x18+2x10 etcetera. The single lightweight cab I now use sounds tighter, has better dispersion, less unwanted colouration of tone and can go louder then the heavy stuff I owned before.

Everything being produced currently is better then anything ever produced in the seventies no matter how much old farts are hanging on to what they think they know. Every claim made by them about lighter cabs not being as good so far is all hearsay and/or assumption.

[discreet]

[quote name='DiMarco' timestamp='1463390534' post='3050870']
Everything being produced currently is better then anything ever produced in the seventies no matter how much old farts are hanging on to what they think they know. Every claim made by them about lighter cabs not being as good so far is all hearsay and/or assumption.
[/quote]

As an old fart myself I tend to agree, but there's no accounting for taste. If sound was the only consideration I'd use an SVT and an 8X10 - having toured this rig back in the day, nothing currently available improves on it for sheer power and tone - in my opinion. It is still the benchmark.

However, reality crashes in - as it tends to - and I need to avoid another hernia. Hernias are funny, but not so much if you have one yourself - and I can confirm that the surgical repair process and recovery is even less amusing.

Edited May 16, 2016 by discreet

[alexclaber]

I don't think it's age, it's excessive use of cars, computers, smartphones (all terrible for posture), TVs with remote controls, and a generally sedentary lifestyle (bad for core strength). No wonder injuries occur when the only exercise some people get is moving their gear. And if you're about to play some music you'd be better off saving the physical energy for the gig rather than moving the rig.

Backs are very complex structures and most people don't 'listen' to their bodies, so small problems become big problems over time. I've had upper back/neck issues in the past (though never related to moving gear). Flexibility and core strength are critical if you don't want to end up broken. I've become quite a fan of both yoga and deadlifting (this is like a magic exercise for sorting out posture and core strength).

[discreet]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1463393735' post='3050909']
I've become quite a fan of both yoga and [b]deadlifting [/b](this is like a magic exercise for sorting out posture and core strength).
[/quote]

That looks interesting.

[luckydog]

[QUOTE]Japhet said:

I remember the 70s when the sound at the vast majority of gigs was mostly between sh*te and unlistenable. It was generally through the now much coveted valve amps and the not so coveted heavyweight cabs. Times have certainly changed as has the degree of tint on the rose tinted specs. [/QUOTE]

Think you're right that front of house sound is typically far better these days, but that is due to technological developments in PA and FOH speakers - not due to sounds of instruments/amps themselves being better IMO.

Good example is the sound of a genuine Hammond Organ and Leslie from 60s/70s. No matter how good a lightweight emulation might be (and they are good), once you hear the real thing there is just no going back. The real thing is a league above emulations, and the playability of the instrument itself is an art in itself.
However, a Hammond/Leslie combination might weight 27 stone or more. But emulation, weighing in at a fraction of that, is a compromise........ and why compromise ?

So it is with my 70s bassman 2x15 rig, emulations are a compromise and the real sound is just bona fide and fabulous IMO. Yes, it's heavy (but no-one mentions it, 'cos the Hammond/Leslie is so b****y heavy, (the perfect distraction !).

As a band, we decide not to compromise. Not to try to break the axles on the van, but everything that sounds great seems to be heavy, so that is what we ended up with. One concession is we use a Nord Electro 5 for piano, but you have to hear it through the Leslie to realise it's not much of a compromise.

And so it just happened that, apart from the Nord, the entire band uses all valve gear based on designs from the 60s and 70s - again not for the sake of it just because that is what we think sounds best for what we do (which isn't retro).

LD

[GregBass]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1463218625' post='3049596']
A Stradivarius weighs the same as a modern violin. A 52 P-Bass weighs the same as a modern P-Bass. You get my drift. It's not about age, it's about practicality. If you do a lot of gigs and you're hauling your own gear, a hefty rig becomes a pain in the arse [i]really [/i]quick, regardless of whether it was made in the 70s or last week!
[/quote]

I suppose you would pay more for a 1980s Vauxhall Chevette than a shiny new motor too?

[casapete]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1463391515' post='3050883']
As an old fart myself I tend to agree, but there's no accounting for taste. If sound was the only consideration I'd use an SVT and an 8X10 - having toured this rig back in the day, nothing currently available improves on it for sheer power and tone - in my opinion. It is still the benchmark.

However, reality crashes in - as it tends to - and I need to avoid another hernia. Hernias are funny, but not so much if you have one yourself - and I can confirm that the surgical repair process and recovery is even less amusing.
[/quote]
Totally agree - my SVT rig is still the sound I have in my head that's the best I ever had. This isn't rose tinted glasses time either,
and is why they still dominate stages worldwide.

Edited May 16, 2016 by casapete

[Lw.]

I think the technology/design of lightweight cabs has vastly improved in the last, say, 10 years - there are maybe 10 manufacturers now producing lightweight cabs that perform equally well as older/heavy equipment so the choice is truly there now, you're no longer having to compromise tone for easy of lifting - you can have both. Space is at a premium in our towns & cities, a lot of people need something small for the house, small for the car or something manageable on the tube - lightweight cabs have really helped in these instances.

I don't think lightweight amps are quite there yet - some of them do sound good but I do still feels they're a step down in pure audio terms especially when the big amps are still an easy lift. I'm sure they'll get there eventually though (I haven't tried the very recent offerings from people like Eich, Mesa or Genzler for example).

Edited May 16, 2016 by Lw.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1463394175' post='3050915']That looks interesting.[/quote]

I race mountain bikes (very amateurishly) and as I lack awesome skillz I'm trying to make up that deficit by getting stronger and fitter, hence the deadlifts. But I'm amazed how it sorts out my posture and stops me having those mornings where I wake up with my neck/shoulders all out of whack. Can manage four Eight10s now!

[GregBass]

I like an extra clean, crisp sound on my bass and until a few years ago, I was using a Peavey Tour 700 with Peavey 4x10 and Electrovoice 1x18 which were OK but weak sounding as I moved up the neck on the D and G strings. I replaced the cabs with Markbass 4x10 and 1x15, which helped. They sounded better and were also lighter.

I then changed the amp for a TC RH750 lightweight. Wow - the sound was in a different league to the Peavey. All my basses sounded similar - and it was a decent sound!

Then I changed the cabs again - this time for a pair of Barefaced Big Baby 2s. Douuble wow. Suddenly each bass developed its own sound and personality. It's by far the best sounding rig I have ever had, and is also the lightest by a mile. Every gig, I have people telling med what a great sound I have. So .... great sound and light. What's not to like?

[discreet]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1463397851' post='3050951']
...stops me having those mornings where I wake up with my neck/shoulders all out of whack...
[/quote]

That's it, I'm in!

[FuNkShUi]

Don't think it's completely an age thing.
I'm 31. In good health.
No issues carrying weight, but if i have the option not to, why would i?
My lightweight rig is as good as anything else i've played through.
If you want to analyse it, i'm sure some people would say it isn't "because x or y" , but to almost everyone else, in a gig situation, it does a cracking job. Weighs less than 10kg.
So i just don't need to have heavy gear.

[RhysP]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1463401362' post='3051000']
Don't think it's completely an age thing.
I'm 31. In good health.
No issues carrying weight, but if i have the option not to, why would i?
My lightweight rig is as good as anything else i've played through.
If you want to analyse it, i'm sure some people would say it isn't "because x or y" , but to almost everyone else, in a gig situation, it does a cracking job. Weighs less than 10kg.
So i just don't need to have heavy gear.
[/quote]

People didn't fight in two world wars just so young people today could avoid lugging heavy gear around you know.

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1463401648' post='3051010']
People didn't fight in two world wars just so young people today could avoid lugging heavy gear around you know.
[/quote]

Ha! Fair point. Although I bet they would have appreciated a lightweight bergen

[LewisK1975]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1463401362' post='3051000']
Don't think it's completely an age thing.
I'm 31. In good health.
No issues carrying weight, but if i have the option not to, why would i?
My lightweight rig is as good as anything else i've played through.
If you want to analyse it, i'm sure some people would say it isn't "because x or y" , but to almost everyone else, in a gig situation, it does a cracking job. Weighs less than 10kg.
So i just don't need to have heavy gear.
[/quote]

This! Apart from being 31. I'm not 31.

[largo]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1463401362' post='3051000']
Don't think it's completely an age thing.
I'm 31. In good health.
No issues carrying weight, but if i have the option not to, why would i?
My lightweight rig is as good as anything else i've played through.
If you want to analyse it, i'm sure some people would say it isn't "because x or y" , but to almost everyone else, in a gig situation, it does a cracking job. Weighs less than 10kg.
So i just don't need to have heavy gear.
[/quote]
31 is getting on a bit, I'm afraid Even the X-Factor goes for under 25's and over 25's as the cut-off.
In all seriousness, I don't think I could ever get my rig to less than 10Kg but I guess it depends on the style of music you play. What amp,cab,combo do you have?