Opinions on using Active 10" PA Speakers for stage monitoring

[mingsta]

We upgraded our PA last year to a pair of Yamaha DXR15 and Allen & Heath ZED60FX-14 desk and now we're having a look at our monitoring.

We are a four piece band (e-drums, bass, guit, vox) and play mainly pubs and parties, plus 3 or 4 weddings a year, but nothing particularly big as you can probably guess from the rest of our kit.

I like the idea of using a pair of active 10inch PA speakers such as Yamaha DBR10s for our monitoring as they're light and don't look they'd take much floorspace. Also they're useful for other applications such as backing up the main PA or for some guitar/vocal type stuff.

I know that it's a bit of a compromise compared to a big full range wedge, so wanted to get your feedback on how well this works and what the main drawbacks are. The guitarist and singer will have one of them and just need to be able to hear themselves and a bit of drum. I'll take the other. In an ideal world, I'd put lots of bass and drums through and just enough guitar and vocals to know what they're up to, but realistically, I can see myself using the monitor for drums/vocals/guitar + separate bass amp.

[casapete]

I use a powered JBL Eon 10 inch monitor for playing in pubs and functions. Its main role is for
hearing vocals and acoustic guitar. Don't think putting anthing more bass heavy in it would be
wise TBH.
Whilst the Yamaha is probably a better speaker than my old JBL, I still think you'll struggle
using it for full drumkit / bass stuff at any appreciable gig volume.
For that I think you'll need something that's got more handling capacity and not having a
plastic construction.

[grandad]

I use a Yamaha stagepas 600i for foldback.

I don't put bass or drums through them, just vox and guitars, thats with no backline other than bass.

[Phil Starr]

There are only a couple of differences between a PA speaker and a monitor, (and that doesn't apply to all of them either). They may need some sort of stand or wedge to get them to point at the right angle and some monitors have the controls on the front where you can reach them whilst playing. Pa speakers generally have them on the back which is awkward if you are trying to kill feedback for example.

Functionally they are pretty much the same and are interchangeable.

It's a common trick of touring and function bands to use identical speakers for monitoring and PA so they can be swapped around if there are problems. Worth a thought anyway.

Poor quality ones won't handle a lot of bass or drums, whether PA or monitors,

[JTUK]

[quote name='mingsta' timestamp='1462193105' post='3040927']
We upgraded our PA last year to a pair of Yamaha DXR15 and Allen & Heath ZED60FX-14 desk and now we're having a look at our monitoring.

We are a four piece band (e-drums, bass, guit, vox) and play mainly pubs and parties, plus 3 or 4 weddings a year, but nothing particularly big as you can probably guess from the rest of our kit.

I like the idea of using a pair of active 10inch PA speakers such as Yamaha DBR10s for our monitoring as they're light and don't look they'd take much floorspace. Also they're useful for other applications such as backing up the main PA or for some guitar/vocal type stuff.

I know that it's a bit of a compromise compared to a big full range wedge, so wanted to get your feedback on how well this works and what the main drawbacks are. The guitarist and singer will have one of them and just need to be able to hear themselves and a bit of drum. I'll take the other. In an ideal world, I'd put lots of bass and drums through and just enough guitar and vocals to know what they're up to, but realistically, I can see myself using the monitor for drums/vocals/guitar + separate bass amp.
[/quote]

Depends what you need to hear.
With basic sound set-ups I think FOH and mons are best left to do as little as possible so that means vox.
Depends what comes back from your desk.

For me, a DXR10 or QSC K10's, main use would be Vox..maybe some keys ... but it depends on what the band want/need to hear.
For small stages, and quick set-ups, you don't need to over complicate things...IMO.

[mingsta]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1462207987' post='3041123']
Depends what you need to hear.
With basic sound set-ups I think FOH and mons are best left to do as little as possible so that means vox.
Depends what comes back from your desk.

For me, a DXR10 or QSC K10's, main use would be Vox..maybe some keys ... but it depends on what the band want/need to hear.
For small stages, and quick set-ups, you don't need to over complicate things...IMO.
[/quote]

Because our drummer uses an electronic kit, we'll definitely need to hear that. We don't need to feel the kick, but need to hear enough to lock in.

[sunburstjazz1967]

What does the drummer currently use, in ears?

[thinman]

One big difference is the dispersion from the horns/tweeters which has a lot to do with how clear they sound. Your usual active speaker with a letter box-shaped horn works better when upright as it disperses the higher frequencies more widely left-right than it does up-down. When you turn them on their side that arrangement is reversed.
What that means in practice is that they're OK if you're right in front of them but the clarity will drop off quite a lot if you're to the left or right - more than with a dedicated monitor wedge that is built to be laid down and having the tweeters orientated accordingly.

As others have said they'll do the job but don't expect a full range mix to work. You generally feel that from the mains anyway. Angle them to point at your head and not your knees too!

[JTUK]

[quote name='mingsta' timestamp='1462215589' post='3041211']
Because our drummer uses an electronic kit, we'll definitely need to hear that. We don't need to feel the kick, but need to hear enough to lock in.
[/quote]

I think 10's will 'do' drums but I generally think 10's need subs.

In this situation.... I'd put the drums thru a decent combo and keep him out of vox 10's...
If the drummer has an electronic kit I assume somewhere along the line he'd have thought
about his monitoring needs?

[mingsta]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1462220274' post='3041275']
I think 10's will 'do' drums but I generally think 10's need subs.

In this situation.... I'd put the drums thru a decent combo and keep him out of vox 10's...
If the drummer has an electronic kit I assume somewhere along the line he'd have thought
about his monitoring needs?
[/quote]

Yeah, the drummer doesn't need a monitor as he has his own mix from the desk going in to his headphones with the rest of the band in but no drums. He then mixes to taste with his drum and click when this gets to his drum unit.

I'm now leaning more towards getting a 12inch wedge monitor such as the Thomann The Box Pro Mon A12.

[tauzero]

We use a pair of Behringer B210Ds, just for vocal monitoring and sometimes a bit of guitar. Wouldn't want to put drums and bass through them.

[JTUK]

[quote name='mingsta' timestamp='1462221663' post='3041298']
Yeah, the drummer doesn't need a monitor as he has his own mix from the desk going in to his headphones with the rest of the band in but no drums. He then mixes to taste with his drum and click when this gets to his drum unit.

I'm now leaning more towards getting a 12inch wedge monitor such as the Thomann The Box Pro Mon A12.
[/quote]

I've used Box cabs and they aren't very good for vocals, IMO... the horn wasn't very robust.
Wharfedale might be a better version..?
If drums need to go thru it... I'd get a RCF712...as the 12 should give tad more back re the drums, IMO.

I HAVE to hear the drummer so I'd be against elec kits unless the monitoring is spot on.
Most guys I know who have them only use them for studio/practice and they NEVER make the gig
so if a drummer had one...he should be the one to make it 'live'.
It would be like a gtr not having an amp.. and keys using headphones.

[grandad]

[quote name='mingsta' timestamp='1462215589' post='3041211']
Because our drummer uses an electronic kit, we'll definitely need to hear that. We don't need to feel the kick, but need to hear enough to lock in.
[/quote]

With electronic drums I give the drummer a Roland KC150 4 channel keyboard amp as a side-fill.

Mono drums into channel 2 with it's own gain, line out out to desk.

Aux 1 from desk back to channel 4 the monitor channel, with it's own gain = foldback, vox and guitar. This does not go to line out.

So, the drummer has control over his mix of drums and his foldback and an overall on stage volume control. Everyone on stage can hear the drums. If the drummer has a mic he gets his vox in aux 1.

Just one solution that I find works very well.

One point, once the drum level is set on the desk the drummer must not alter the channel 2 gain on the KC150. He can only alter the channel 4 gain or the overall gain to adjust mid-set.

Edited May 4, 2016 by grandad

[skidder652003]

[quote name='mingsta' timestamp='1462221663' post='3041298']
Yeah, the drummer doesn't need a monitor as he has his own mix from the desk going in to his headphones with the rest of the band in but no drums. He then mixes to taste with his drum and click when this gets to his drum unit.

I'm now leaning more towards getting a 12inch wedge monitor such as the Thomann The Box Pro Mon A12.
[/quote]

I wouldn't recommend those Thomman "box" wedges, a bit underpowered IMO. We picked up a pair of active RCF art 310 PA speakers which are designed to be used as wedge monitoring and are incredibly loud, you can find em used for about £300 a pair if you look around

[leftybassman392]

It's been said several times already but bears repeating: too much LF content in the monitors is generally not a good idea. There's a lot to be said for smaller units. Ask yourself, what do you really [i]need[/i] to hear (not necessarily the same as what you may [i]want[/i] to hear of course...)?

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='mingsta' timestamp='1462215589' post='3041211']
Because our drummer uses an electronic kit, we'll definitely need to hear that. We don't need to feel the kick, but need to hear enough to lock in.
[/quote]
[quote name='mingsta' timestamp='1462221663' post='3041298']
Yeah, the drummer doesn't need a monitor as he has his own mix from the desk going in to his headphones with the rest of the band in but no drums. He then mixes to taste with his drum and click when this gets to his drum unit.

I'm now leaning more towards getting a 12inch wedge monitor such as the Thomann The Box Pro Mon A12.
[/quote]

OK it's pretty clear that with an E-drum you will need the monitors so you are doing the right thing. I played with one band with e-drums and monitoring was a real problem in some venues.Depending upon the acoustics you could lose the drums altogether below the rest of the band, even though he had decent monitors behind him for his own use. With him using 'phones you won't get anything.

I think the idea of 10's will work and there will be a reduction in size too, which you are after. The only problems are will they be able to handle the dynamics of drums and will they handle the excursion demands of a heavy kick sound. My feeling is that cheap speakers like the Box won't. To handle the dynamics you need the loudest sounds to be undistorted even though you'll need to keep the overall sound down to keep feedback at bay. I'd be looking for something that went to at least 126dB. That alone rules out the 'bargain' end of the market. I'd also want to know the excursion of the bass drivers was able to cope with kick. On that basis the Yamahas or something like QSC's or RCF's or Wharfedales would do the job, as well as having a better sound.

It's no different from bass speakers. A decent 10" driver like (dare I say) Barefaced is going to outperform some cheapy 12 or even 15 due to better excursion but that comes at a price. You don't get cheap, small and loud bass all together.

You should be able to do what you want with a 10 if you choose carefully. I'd still consider using the 12" Yammy's Just so you can use them in the PA at a pinch but that's probably just me. Once you've got them it would be worth using the 80Hz filter on the mixer feed if you can or rolling off the bass at the speaker to protect it from the extremes of kick. If the speaker has DSP built in then the compression built in will protect it for you and you don't need to worry. DSP might be something you'd consider an essential when choosing a speaker for this application. Don't all the new Yamaha actives have this as standard?

[JTUK]

Yamaha DXR's have a very comprehensive back panel sp I think you could run a kick thru it.
When I tested a few 10's v12's cabs, the 10's won out ONLY if you used a sub (the purpose bening FOH)
otherwise if you wanted to put a kick thru it..then the 12's had it, IMO.
For bass response, wooden boxes were better than composite, but you have to weight that small
compromise against cost.

For this purpose, and bang for buck, I'd go for RCF 712...but QSC if the money stretches to it.

[sunburstjazz1967]

I suppose this is where those six D&B monitors would really shine as long as they weren't hired out when you needed them? :-)

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1462355934' post='3042277']
I suppose this is where those six D&B monitors would really shine as long as they weren't hired out when you needed them? :-)
[/quote]

D&B? I thought they were DB? So much confusion.

[EBS_freak]

PS - monitoring drums through 10s is doable if you have enough processing on your signal. e.g. lots of compression to lessen the transients and HPF... but that's not readily available from what the original poster has stated. Typically, you wouldn't go too crazy on the compression though, as you'll start introducing problems with feedback - however, with a kit that isn't miced up, you would be able to push a lot harder.

The key question is, how loud are you as a band? If you have a loud guitar and bass, you have little chance of getting drums to a volume that I think you would want to achieve. 10s are great for monitors - but as is probably clear from this thread, not so great for lowend.

Have you considered a wired in-ears solution?

[KevB]

I've used the little Behringer 205D (only a 5'' speaker!) in a small band set up for monitoring both my vocals and the output from my midi pedals (ie keyboard mid range) at the same time (2 channels which can be independently adjusted) and they remain surprisingly clear at fairly low frequencies, wouldn't put a kick drum through one though. Can incorporate on a mic stand used for vox so not actually taking up any extra floor space at all. The singer in the last band didn't like the look of it but then he was a complete cock.

[Phil Starr]

The 10" Yamahas have both an HPF and a limiter built in. http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=usa.yamaha.com&asset_id=63438 I'd think it unlikely they'd have problems with a kick drum as monitors. They claim 129dB which would make them plenty loud enough even if you allow for the 3dB they are probably adding for 'peak' output.

However the Allen and Heath mixer won't allow you to have a series of different monitor mixes. you might need to go digital to get that.

[E sharp]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1462355934' post='3042277']
I suppose this is where those six D&B monitors would really shine as long as they weren't hired out when you needed them? :-)
[/quote]
That's never going to go away , is it ...... he he

[sunburstjazz1967]

Lol

[Tonteee]

I use exactly the OP's setup in my 5pc funk band - but with real drums. TBH we've not put either kit or me through the DBR10s, but they give a broad frequency response, based on their performance with playback. Certainly loud enough for vox/keys mons, with good throw.