"Could you turn your backline down a bit ? "

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1453584782' post='2960888']
Wedge speakers tend to be full range and tend to be issued towards vocals. Not bad but far from ideal for bass.
[/quote]

But the signal can be processed with much more expensive eq kit than we tend to have in our amps, by the time it hits the monitors the flub and wasted power that we feed our bass cabs can be removed giving a monster bass tone right in your face.

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='IanA' timestamp='1453586879' post='2960913']
Too much back line volume kills the FOH sound, I use IEM's where possible... No more volume issues👍 I wonder whether in the future back line might become a thing of the past
[/quote]

Exactly. I discussed the idea of having a black star cloth the width of the stage with an Ampeg stack sewn onto it with some red power leds for effect!

Edited January 23, 2016 by sunburstjazz1967

[Dad3353]

Our backline is that with which we rehearse, in a 5 x 6 x 2m cottage. We have 2 guitar half stacks (Marshall 100w, Mesa 2 x 90...), a 200w Hiwatt into a 2 x 15 and a 5-piece Camco drum kit. We don't use earplugs; we don't need to, as we don't play [i]that [/i]loud. When we play out, we use exactly the same settings, indoors or out; the PA will take it to the folks out there. There are very few instruments or amps that do not have a dynamic range and volume control, and all can be played softly or louder, as the music demands (an exception or two for bagpipes and binious and the like, which are [i]always [/i]too loud..!). It's not the physical size or potential wattage that creates the problem, it's the fellow that doesn't understand (or doesn't [i]want [/i]to understand...) how to get tone at any level. This applies as much to drummers as lead guitarists, bassists and key players. Brass players manage to play with trumpets and trombones at pub levels; any decent musician should be able to do the same, whatever the size of rig.
Just my opinion and experience; others seem to vary somewhat.

Edit: of course, if the FOH tech asks any of us to turn down, we'll oblige. It's not happened often, and, on occasion, we've later in the sound check been asked to turn back up again, once he hears us all playing together..!

Edited January 23, 2016 by Dad3353

[mrtcat]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453577608' post='2960774']
Most bass player obsess over their £500 bass cabs yet the wedge infront of them is often far superior, a di box is all that is needed if there is a proper pa!
[/quote]
IF there's a decent monitor available that's occasionally true but it's also dependent on the engineer knowing how to or caring enough to get you a sound that works on stage. Very few bass players can guarantee what monitor will be at the next gig. I'd rather own a decent amp so I know there will always be decent bass that drummer and I can both hear and it be overkill than not owning a decent amp and struggling when the monitors or engineer aren't up to par. In ears are all well and good if the whole band subscribes but I do heaps of depping and sometimes it's in ear but more often than not it's a mix of backline and wedges.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='danbowskill' timestamp='1453572968' post='2960715']
Also from a vain visual point a 12" cab looks mighty crap compared to a 4x10-8x10 on stage.
[/quote]

Sad but true, a lot of audiences will look at a band using small 1x12s and dismiss them as not being the real thing - or at least that`s how it seems in some scenes.

And the daft thing is - or at least I think it`s daft - is we have lots of headroom to produce super clean bass sounds, yet many of the classic basslines when listened to isolated are full of gain/clankiness.

[Deedee]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1453590170' post='2960934']


Sad but true, a lot of audiences will look at a band using small 1x12s and dismiss them as not being the real thing - or at least that`s how it seems in some scenes.

And the daft thing is - or at least I think it`s daft - is we have lots of headroom to produce super clean bass sounds, yet many of the classic basslines when listened to isolated are full of gain/clankiness.
[/quote]

Very true Lozz. I spend my time making the sound 'more dirty'

[sunburstjazz1967]

I can see a time where the big names start endorsing iem systems and di boxes rather than cabs. The younger players are embracing technology and they are the next batch of purchasers, the dinosaurs won't be here for ever deafening themselves.

Silent gigs are already there where the audience all where head phones, imagine a group of kids that could wear head phones plugged into their phone with an app that mixes them all together via wifi including fx etc and recording capability compared to setting up a load of expensive heavy kit their parents have to drive around!

Edited January 24, 2016 by sunburstjazz1967

[danbowskill]

A heavy metal gig with everyone wearing headphones???.......can never see that ever happening imo......plus how many kids play 18+ venues

Edited January 24, 2016 by danbowskill

[MacDaddy]

But what about the pure physical pleasure of feeling trouser flapping bass?

[JTUK]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453586659' post='2960909']
I played the Robin in bilston a while ago, best bass sound ever in my monitor, far better than the £2000 worth of my rig that wad barely doing anything behind me. My old function band had an EV pa, the tops and bins could pump out much more smooth fat bass than a backline bass amp even with a 8x10.
[/quote]

I ask what the spec is ...so I know what to take and if they haven't got a mon engr on stage, I take care of my stage sound.

But the minimum you should KNOW is what mixes you have and what fills/monitors you are getting.

If you just turn up and trust to luck..... you can hardly complain.

The HUGE variable between engrs and kit make it a nonsense to assume all will be ok. IME.

[gjones]

It's weird. A venue I play in regularly, has recently asked me to turn up the onstage amp. In fact on two different nights, different engineers have come up onto the stage and turned the gain up on the amp, to get more volume coming from the stage. I thought to myself 'that's NEVER happened before, how weird?'.
It's an Ampeg PF 500 which has a post and pre button (which was switched to pre) and a -40db cut button at the back, which was activated. The second time this happened, I assumed this was the problem so un-activated it. The engineer must have had the fader up full and the resultant signal almost blew the speakers.

Is the DI signal on these amps THAT high, that they need to cut it by 40db? Or are the sound engineers in the venue just not very good?

[JTUK]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1453590170' post='2960934']
Sad but true, a lot of audiences will look at a band using small 1x12s and dismiss them as not being the real thing - or at least that`s how it seems in some scenes.

And the daft thing is - or at least I think it`s daft - is we have lots of headroom to produce super clean bass sounds, yet many of the classic basslines when listened to isolated are full of gain/clankiness.
[/quote]

On a big stage, 2x112 wont be enough but you hope you'll get that back from sidefills..
But also, on a big stage, you'll have crew so all you have to do is rig it as they've put it in place

It is true that some players sounds are very very messy and need tidying up, but it helps it you don't give
the engr that job to do..IMV.
Same with bass sounds, I can get my sound up on the amp and stage in mins... which works for the engr
as he is basically just concerned with level only. I'll then want a band mix in my monitor and I can make myself
bigger in my little patch.
The one thing that is a MUST..is that me and the drummer can play with each other..and by that, I mean, hear.
Having a small rig on stage and having the monitors controlled outfront is fraught as you have to get a clear
message to the Engr to turn something that he can't hear, up..??

Hmmm not the way I'd do it.

[LayDownThaFunk]

The fact of the matter is the sound coming out FOH isn't the sound you hear on stage from your rig. Even if you mic it, it's still going through their FOH so will sound different.

[LayDownThaFunk]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453629056' post='2961087']
I can see a time where the big names start endorsing iem systems and di boxes rather than cabs. The younger players are embracing technology and they are the next batch of purchasers, the dinosaurs won't be here for ever deafening themselves.

Silent gigs are alright out there where the audience all where head phones, imagine a group of kids that could wear head phones plugged into their phone with an app that mixes them all together via wifi including fx etc and recording capability compared to setting up a lad of expensive heavy kit their parents have to drive around!
[/quote]
On your own/On your own.

[2elliot]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453629056' post='2961087']
I can see a time where the big names start endorsing iem systems and di boxes rather than cabs. The younger players are embracing technology and they are the next batch of purchasers, the dinosaurs won't be here for ever deafening themselves.

Silent gigs are alright out there where the audience all where head phones, imagine a group of kids that could wear head phones plugged into their phone with an app that mixes them all together via wifi including fx etc and recording capability compared to setting up a lad of expensive heavy kit their parents have to drive around!
[/quote]

That sounds awful... in more ways than one. It's certainly not what I would class as going to see a gig. The punters may as well stay at home and watch it on a monitor, for that matter the band may as well be at home and not necessarily at the same one as the other members of the group.

Edited January 24, 2016 by 2elliot

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1453639478' post='2961246']
Is the DI signal on these amps THAT high, that they need to cut it by 40db?
[/quote]That's the difference between mic level and line level. The board should have the ability to switch the XLR inputs between mic and line level, but not all do.

[Truckstop]

I played a pub last night with my 100w 1x12 combo running at about 40% volume capability and was definitely loud enough.

I don't understand why some bassists feel the need to have massive amounts of power on tap. The full potential of gear like that is never fully reached (in pub and club land anyway).

I appreciate that low frequencies need a lot of power to amplify properly but everything under 100Hz is mush anyway. Cut it out completely and you don't need to use as much power. Nearly every time I see a pub band the low bass frequencies are too loud and I end up not being able to hear the drums and the overall sound is mushy as hell.

For pleasure purposes I have a Peavey Max700 and TVX410 that I roll out when the opportunity arises at rehearsals and suchlike. But when working, the Rumble combo is all that I need.

[chris_b]

I don't mind a player with 1000 watts or a half stack. I mind when they can't get a balance, decent sound or play [i]with [/i]other musicians.

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='LayDownThaFunk' timestamp='1453640214' post='2961260']

On your own/On your own.
[/quote]
I'm not sure what that means?

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='2elliot' timestamp='1453641033' post='2961268']


That sounds awful... in more ways than one. It's certainly not what I would class as going to see a gig. The punters may as well stay at home and watch it on a monitor, for that matter the band may as well be at home and not necessarily at the same one as the other members of the group.
[/quote]

It's already happening.

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='LayDownThaFunk' timestamp='1453640056' post='2961256']
The fact of the matter is the sound coming out FOH isn't the sound you hear on stage from your rig. Even if you mic it, it's still going through their FOH so will sound different.
[/quote]
Exactly

[Truckstop]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1453642451' post='2961289']
I don't mind a player with 1000 watts or a half stack. I mind when they can't get a balance, decent sound or play [i]with [/i]other musicians.
[/quote]

That's probably the most valid point of the whole thread!

Really, who gives a sh*t what they choose to bring to a gig as long as they can play and sound alright while doing it!

[JTUK]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1453646233' post='2961328']
That's probably the most valid point of the whole thread!

Really, who gives a sh*t what they choose to bring to a gig as long as they can play and sound alright while doing it!
[/quote]

Quite.... but if you assume wrongly- ?
FWIW... out of all the engrs I've come across recently, I can recall 2...!!!! that were good.
The rest were ok downwards..
And if we are talking about a P.A being 2 115/18 bins and a couple of tops, then it is all pot luck.

[skychaserhigh]

[quote name='danbowskill' timestamp='1453629761' post='2961093']
A heavy metal gig with everyone wearing headphones???.......can never see that ever happening imo......plus how many kids play 18+ venues
[/quote]
Metallica have already done it in Antarctica.

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='danbowskill' timestamp='1453629761' post='2961093']
A heavy metal gig with everyone wearing headphones???.......can never see that ever happening imo......plus how many kids play 18+ venues
[/quote]

It already has, they are called silent concerts.