The Beatles Curse

[skankdelvar]

It's just like watching a particularly gifted Toreador.

[rushbo]

Twelve pages of people talking about artists who have changed the world/their life and no one has mentioned Robert Johnson? If you're looking for the absolute source of the vast majority of Western Popular Music, he's pretty close to the fountainhead.

[the boy]

[quote name='rushbo' timestamp='1441318792' post='2857986']
Twelve pages of people talking about artists who have changed the world/their life and no one has mentioned Robert Johnson? If you're looking for the absolute source of the vast majority of Western Popular Music, he's pretty close to the fountainhead.
[/quote]
The cocaine cowboy????? I mean, I see where your coming from but it's pretty tenuous and nowhere near the beatles.

[blue]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1441315707' post='2857957']
There's a million and one things happening at very moment, I "get" many of them. Your favourite band that you saw half a century ago isn't one of them.[/quote]

I'm afraid it is.

It's happening right now, all over the world. Anytime and any place where any group of people are walking on stage with electric guitars.

Blue

Edited September 3, 2015 by blue

[lurksalot]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1441322896' post='2858022']


I'm afraid it is.

It's happening right now, all over the world. Anytime and any place where any group of people are walking on stage with electric guitars.

Blue
[/quote]
is the issue here that some see this whole discussion as a matter of faith , and that that in itself, is being offered as its own proof ?

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='rushbo' timestamp='1441318792' post='2857986']
Twelve pages ... and no one has mentioned Robert Johnson? ... he's pretty close to the fountainhead.
[/quote]

Recently published work by respected anthropologist Professor Theboy has established that the progenitor of [i]all[/i] music was Mr [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/266871-the-beatles-curse/page__view__findpost__p__2856603"]Ugg[/url], a prehistoric caveman located somewhere near what is now Catford.

The link between Mr Ugg, the itinerant bluesman Blind Lemon Pie and Mr Pie's journeyman companion and protege Robert Johnson is subjected to forensic analysis in Professor Theboy's technical appendix.

In any event, the most influential 20th century acoustic guitarist was Maybelle Carter. So poo to Rambling Bob.


[size=3][b]Maybelle Carter[/b]: Johnny Cash's mother-in-law, inventor of a picking style and fount of etc., etc.[/size]

[CamdenRob]

I've got into the routine of opening up this thread when I first boot my machine up at work in the morning and having a read through blue's responses... it really cheers me up to have a good chuckle in the morning, sets the day off on a positive note.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1441314746' post='2857944']
I'll simplify this and I'm a huge MJ fan.

No Beatles, no MJ.

Blue
[/quote]

Music wouldn't have stopped if the Beatles hadn't existed. It would have developed, albeit differently.

Michael Jackson would still have been a musician. The roots of The Jacksons success was Joe Jackson's failure to make it big, both as a boxer and as a musician in the 40s and 50s, before the Beatles. His personal failure led to him vicariously living his dreams through his children, and the famously strict way he made that happen. There was plenty of R&B before The Beatles, see how much The Beatles themselves were influenced by it. There would have been plenty of source of inspiration for The Jacksons and Michael Jackson's careers. It would have been different, just the same as how it would have been different had there been no Les Paul. But to just say "No MJ" is taking things too far.

Clearly if we take any of the links out of history, then things would have been different, even if the link was quite small. E.g. if Buddy Holly hadn't died, how would music have developed? Who would have made it big or not made it big? We can't answer that. But music would still have developed in their absence.

If we look at the innovations of The Beatles, much of what they did would also have been discovered by others had they not been there. E.g. in terms of the use of the studio, Frank Zappa was active and doing experimental music/recording before The Beatles became known. Similarly for Brian Wilson of The Beach Boys. Both had the capability of making the same innovations as The Beatles did, but of course The Beatles got there first. In terms of songwriting, again many people would have been able to take advantage of harmonic and show tune music theory that The Beatles introduced into popular music. Lyrical innovations were really done by other people, e.g. The Beatles move to more sophisticated lyrics was influenced by such people as Bob Dylan.

The world would be different if there were no Beatles, but the world would be different if anybody from history hadn't been born or hadn't done the notable things that they did. But to say 'No Beatles, no <anything really>' is exaggerating their importance because others would have taken the opportunities that The Beatles had to make the changes they did. There would still be music, there would still be electric guitars. There would be detail changes, e.g. perhaps there would be less use of sitar in western music, though it could be that there might be more after Neil Diamond's fateful meeting with Ravi Shankar and the stream of crossover hits that followed.

In another post you say that 'it is happening, every time someone goes on stage with electric guitars'. Well yes, every one who goes on stage nowadays there will be some element of Beatles influence, possibly transitive or cumulative. But the same applies to Link Wray, Chuck Berry, Junior Barnard, who developed the sound and playing styles of electric guitar that influenced later artists (including The Beatles).

Blue, I think the simplistic way that you post claims without supporting discussion is getting people's back up. Particularly when you make a hyperbolic statement such as 'No Beatles, No MJ'. The Beatles didn't invent music.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1441314225' post='2857927']
I don't feel any better than anyone. I feel more insightful. LOL

Blue
[/quote]

Well you've certainly given us an insight!

[the boy]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1441352160' post='2858100']


Well you've certainly given us an insight!
[/quote]
I think he is playing with words.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='the boy' timestamp='1441355201' post='2858140']
I think he is playing with words.
[/quote]

Thanks. Being so young and naive I didn't "get it" the first time

[operative451]

To me they'll always be the boy band that i've seen my mum screaming over on an episode of 'sounds of the 60s'. My (completely worthless because i wasn't there) opinion based on an interest in how music got to sound like it did, plus a general interest in history, is that if it wasn't them it would have been somebody else. A new generation were ready for a new idea and the ones who embodied it were a skiffle band on speed!

I went to see Mitch Benn do this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03szxdh on tour - its an interesting viewpoint: "

Blurb goes:
[i]Mitch has realised that over the years many people have claimed the title The Fifth Beatle. In fact, so many of them have been described as such that there are now at least 36 of them. They can't all be right. But some of them are righter than others... [/i]

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1441322896' post='2858022']
I'm afraid it is.
It's happening right now, all over the world. Anytime and any place where any group of people are walking on stage with electric guitars.
Blue.[/quote]

Hmm! Even my thoughts and personal tastes in music are dictated by a fan of advanced years of a band which barely lasted 10 years? Why do I suddenly feel kinda.......



OK - how deep does this influence go, is this Beatles influence so spectacular that is has retrospective capabilities?
What for example does it have to say about people who are singularly unimpressed by the Beatles, but ARE into people who influenced them?
Such as the afore-mentioned Robert Johnson? Or Chuck Berry and/or Bo Diddley?

[skankdelvar]

Among the many attributions for Mr Blue's opinion, it has been advanced by some here that the reason he holds it is because he is:

* American and they're like that

* A hopeless nostalgist

* A troll

* A bit 'superior'

* Unwilling to 'see reason'

* In possession of a 'bad attitude'

* An 'old person' (this from someone I suspect is no spring chicken but would prefer us to think they are)

* Just plain wrong and too obstinate to admit it


Reviewing these frankly baseless allegations, it finally dawned on me. Mr Blue's 'crime' is nothing to do with his appreciation of the Beatles. He is reviled by some simply because he does not subscribe to the fashionable belief that 'everyone's opinion is as valuable as everyone else's'.

In their eyes, Blue's unwillingness to compromise his belief makes him a [i]bad person[/i] which means it's OK to say nasty things about him because [i]bad people must be punished[/i]. So off they go with the insults and snide comments,

In my view, those who have attacked him on a personal basis embrace a range of unfortunate qualities, including hubris, egotism, bullying forum vigilantism and - possibly - aggression stemming from stress-induced psychological dysfunctionality.

The common factor is these members [i]just can't handle[/i] the idea someone's posts don't carry the usual mimsying proviso of YMMV or IMO. In short, they are 'offended' by certainty.

So they try to enforce a kind of diffidence and false modesty on the grounds that someone who doesn't cave in to group pressure is 'being difficult'. A trap that's easy to fall into if you hold the mildly fascist belief that the group view must rule supreme and the individual who differs should be punished.

This thread has been fantastically useful in flushing out those who believe in the dictatorship of the majority and who are willing to demean someone to their face in pursuit of 'freedom of expression for all - except when we don't like it'.

You know who you are

Edited September 4, 2015 by skankdelvar

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='operative451' timestamp='1441367278' post='2858297']Blurb goes:
[i]Mitch has realised that over the years many people have claimed the title The Fifth Beatle. In fact, so many of them have been described as such that there are [b]now at least 36 of the[/b]m. They can't all be right. But some of them are righter than others... [/i][/quote]

More than were in the crowd at the first ever Sex Pistols gig - but about an eighth of the number who claim to have been at the first ever Sex Pistols gig.


[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1441371581' post='2858379']
Among the many attributions for Mr Blue's opinion, it has been........etc.
[/quote]
Maybe some respondents don't like being told that if they don't agree with the "[i][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]American,[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] hopeless nostalgist, [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]trolling,[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] bit 'superior',[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] unwilling to 'see reason',[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] bad attitude,[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] old person" © SKDLR Enterprises - [/font][/color][/i]it's only because they don't "get it"?

A consequence of that statement is that the non-gettee isn't entitled to have tastes or opinions of their own.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Big_Stu

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1441371695' post='2858383']
A consequence of that statement is that the non-gettee isn't entitled to have tastes or opinions of their own.
[/quote]

Stu, me old love. This is the fundamental misunderstanding into which so many otherwise well-meaning posters have tumbled.

At no point has anyone (including the OP) suggested that we aren't allowed to have opinions or tastes. Or that their opinions are [i]wholly[/i] invalid. Or that anyone's tastes are deficient. Or that some musical epiphanies are more personally valid than others.

To draw that interpretation is to misapprehend. With his tongue planted firmly in his cheek the OP acknowledges his opinion to be slightly more correct than all others. First among equals, if you like.

Some have responded with reasoned objections. Others with abuse. Still others in a state of injured self-esteem. The commonality is a kind of 'How dare you think something like that?' and a sense that - 'Oh my God - this sort of thinking could bring the forum to its knees'.

Stu - of all people here I would have thought you'd support the idea of holding an unfashionable view and politely sticking to one's guns in the face of provocative comments from a bunch of offended pinkos.

Edited September 4, 2015 by skankdelvar

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1441372900' post='2858402']
Stu, me old love. This is the fundamental misunderstanding into which so many otherwise well-meaning posters have tumbled.
At no point has anyone (including the OP) suggested that we aren't allowed to have opinions or tastes. Or that their opinions are [i]wholly[/i] invalid.
[/quote]
I'd beg to differ on that, "not getting" is - to me - a way of belittling a differing opinion. Possibly down to my once knowing the most self-loving egocentric you ever met, the proverbial "so far up he can see daylight" who's cop-out was always the same phrase.
Though I did see the "humor" in his post, which is why I said "geddit" in a later response (My talents are wasted etc etc ad lib, exeunt stage left)

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1441372900' post='2858402']Stu - of all people here I would have thought you'd support the idea of holding an unfashionable view and politely sticking to one's guns in the face of provocative comments from a bunch of offended pinkos.[/quote]
I represent what you're trying to incinerate!............ and anyway - flares are coming back in!

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1441374267' post='2858421']
I'd beg to differ on that, "not getting" is - to me - a way of belittling a differing opinion. Possibly down to my once knowing the most self-loving egocentric you ever met, the proverbial "so far up he can see daylight" who's cop-out was always the same phrase.

Though I did see the "humor" in his post, which is why I said "geddit" in a later response (My talents are wasted etc etc ad lib, exeunt stage left)[/quote]

I can see why the phrase 'Not getting it' might rankle, there being an association with an unlovable individual. In this case, I can imagine no one less 'up himself' than the OP, him being a modest, likeable chap entirely devoid of pretence and artifice. A bit like you, me and a select few here on BC.

(General outgoing)

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1441374267' post='2858421']I represent what you're trying to incinerate!............ and anyway - flares are coming back in!
[/quote]

Let's hope they're the right kind of flares


[size=3][b]BassChat mob to Blue[/b]: Stamp out bad opinions![/size]

[paul h]

I don't even know what a "the beatles" is.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='paul h' timestamp='1441375346' post='2858433']
I don't even know what a "the beatles" is.
[/quote]

Consider yourself fortunate. It will save you a lot of heartache in the longer term.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1441375143' post='2858432']
I can see why the phrase 'Not getting it' might rankle, there being an association with an unlovable individual. In this case, I can imagine no one less 'up himself' than the OP, him being a modest, likeable chap entirely devoid of pretence and artifice. A bit like you, me and a select few here on BC.[/quote]

If it turns out the OP looks nothing like either daddy or Grand-daddly Walton, sitting in a chair, possibly a rocker, on the stoop of his house, drinking "sippin' whiskey" and wearing dungarees and a straw hat, while setting the world to rights and saying "Dag-nabbit" occasionally - I shall hold you personally responsible. Don't tell me I'm not being fair in that.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1441375143' post='2858432']
In this case, I can imagine no one less 'up himself' than the OP, him being a modest, likeable chap entirely devoid of pretence and artifice.
[/quote]

I think that's part of why people feel comfortable bringing up their differing points of view. When a poster holds some strong views but doesn't get prickly when questioned (and Blue seems uncannily patient in such situations), it almost invites a bit of devil's-advocate disputing of their points.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1441375485' post='2858437']
If it turns out the OP looks nothing like either daddy or Grand-daddly Walton, sitting in a chair, possibly a rocker, on the stoop of his house, drinking "sippin' whiskey" and wearing dungarees and a straw hat, while setting the world to rights and saying "Dag-nabbit" occasionally - I shall hold you personally responsible. Don't tell me I'm not being fair in that.
[/quote]

In fact, the OP is as far from the stereotypical 'down-home good ol' boy' as one can get.

Upon viewing one of his band's videos last weekend, my good lady wife of many years was heard to observe (somewhat to my envious chagrin) that Mr Blue in no small wise resembles Mr Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson - 'with more hair, better cheekbones and better dressed'.

She added: '...and that's a kicking rhythm section. They make it look effortless. Not like you.'

Edited September 4, 2015 by skankdelvar

[JellyKnees]

Me mam saw them in the cavern back in the day and she says they were sh**e.

Ken Dodd's dad's dog's dead btw...

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1441376099' post='2858445']
In fact, the OP is as far from the stereotypical 'down-home good ol' boy' as one can get.[/quote]

Dag-nabbit!!!

Though to be fair, Mr Dwayne (The Rock) Johnson seems to be rarely seen wearing very much at all.