Slipping Standards

[FuNkShUi]

About a month ago we had a gig in a local pub. Went well, tidy sized crowd, everyone seemed to be having a blast, we all enjoyed. Happy days.
The sound engineer recorded it and we had the mix back about a week ago.
I didn't think too much of it. The songs sounded good in general, few mistakes, but we knew that.
I recently sent a few of these links to someone, who was looking for a few links to my playing, to get some dep work.
Yesterday morning i showed someone the links who i am good friends with, and someone who i respect highly as a musician.
"What the F*ck is that?!" was the first thing he said to me.
"What do you mean??"
"That is utter sh*te. Sloppy timing. Not punchy. Not good at all bud."
I listened back to it again, this time actually listening for the bass, not just an overall feel for the song.
I was shocked. It was really slack playing. No mistakes as such, but none of the attributes that i would consider a good bassist to have. I don't think i'm Victor Wooten, don't get me wrong. But i'm a lot better than the bass player i was hearing. Same goes for the rest of the band really. Everyone was just, a little off i guess. I showed everyone what i was talking about last night in practice and we were in agreement.
It was a pub gig, so i know we were playing a bit more "free" than normal, but really that's no excuse. I have standards that I want to stick to. That should be regardless of venue.
This has proved to be a bit of a wake up call. I wont be taking things so light heartedly anymore, and just going through the motions. I don't want to hear that kind of performance from myself, or my band again!
Anyone else had a similar experience? Are you happy if the gig goes well, regardless of how you played? When is the last time you listened back to a recording of your gig?

[spacey]

Were you drinking ?
Not as disrespect but a couple of pints gives the impression of getting your grove, but when listening back to the recording, you often realise it just gives you a false reading on the gauges.

[JTUK]

I can be a right pain if a gig hasn't gone well..... in that I wont be happy and upbeat the way others might be.
If I've recorded it, I'll check it out and often I'll find it was better than I thought at the time.
I'm happy with it being that way round.

Sometimes you have to accept the general vibe over the playing but I see no harm in being very critical
of yourselves and your playing. The downside is that I can be like that at other people's gigs.
It is the way it is... oh well.

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1427883151' post='2735327']
Were you drinking ?
Not as disrespect but a couple of pints gives the impression of getting your grove, but when listening back to the recording, you often realise it just gives you a false reading on the gauges.
[/quote]

Nah, i don't drink when im gigging. Just complacency i think.

[spacey]

Was anybody else Drinking ? as a bass player you often have to swing it a bit to keep it in the lines, if the drummer is blowing in the wind a bit, you end up over swinging and missing on the overlaps.

Either that or playing with the bass on fire behind your head has to stop.

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1427883166' post='2735328']
I can be a right pain if a gig hasn't gone well..... in that I wont be happy and upbeat the way others might be.
If I've recorded it, I'll check it out and often I'll find it was better than I thought at the time.
I'm happy with it being that way round.

Sometimes you have to accept the general vibe over the playing but I see no harm in being very critical
of yourselves and your playing. The downside is that I can be like that at other people's gigs.
It is the way it is... oh well.
[/quote]

Yeh it's a pretty horrbile feeling if a gig hasn't gone down well, so i suppose that's an upside.
I agree, it's always good to be critical of yourself. That's how you improve right?

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1427883447' post='2735337']
Was anybody else Drinking ? as a bass player you often have to swing it a bit to keep it in the lines, if the drummer is blowing in the wind a bit, you end up over swinging and missing on the overlaps.
Either that or playing with the bass on fire behind your head has to stop.

[/quote]

So you're saying playing one handed whilst necking pints will effect my accuracy?? Haha
Oh, there is no doubt it wasn't only me being a little off point. But still, i should have called the boys on it at the time.
I'd like to think it won't happen again, as everyone in the band are good enough musicians to sound a lot better than we did.

[chris_b]

As you've found out, a great audience reaction doesn't mean the band is playing well.

It's good that you can hear what needs to be done. Play the tape to everyone in the band and put all the "issues" under the microscope. Tell them that not fixing everything is not an option. Be prepared for push back.

Timing separates the good players from everyone else.

[spacey]

Just do not break the secret bass players rule ! SHHHHH !

Remember, no matter what happens, what goes wrong the rule is always.
[s][b]"It was not MY fault" [/b][/s]

[leschirons]

We're always our own worst critics. Last function band I was in in the UK was like this. They got good work and good money and went down really well so, they all assumed that the band was great. Like you, I'm no Vic Wooten but like to get things right and polished. They would not listen so after 10 years of banging my head against a wall, I moved on.

Obviously your band all agree it wasn't great so you have a good opportunity to improve the overall performance as everyone will have the same mindset.

I've had murders in the past with a couple of bands with a "that'll do" attitude due to the apparent success of the gig. You're lucky to not be in that situation.

[JTUK]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1427883570' post='2735338']
Yeh it's a pretty horrbile feeling if a gig hasn't gone down well, so i suppose that's an upside.
I agree, it's always good to be critical of yourself. That's how you improve right?
[/quote]

It is the way some people are...I can't change it about myself, and tbh, I wouldn't want to either.
But, I have learned to lighten up if it went down well, ..and again, tbh, our standards are likely to be far higher
than a casual audience and even a 'bad' gig is perfectly acceptable to them, or more, but yes, self critique
is very useful to improve. It is [u]the[/u] motivation, IMO.

[JTUK]

Definitely, a great reaction is no measure of the gig, IMO, but at least you can
be content that you don't have that as an issue to contend with as well.

I never take much notice of the reaction if I think we stank and nothing will
defer me from that thinking... but it is nice to know others were delighted with it..etc etc

[Happy Jack]

Most of the time I am pretty reluctant to 'let something go', and I have irritated any number of band mates by insisting that we/they get things right, rather than merely close enough.

On the other hand, and partly to rein myself in a bit, I deliberately remain in one band where the word "loose" doesn't even begin to describe it. Every song is chaos, every set is complete anarchy, you never know what the leader is going to do next ... he routinely starts songs in the wrong key, or the wrong speed, or even the wrong rhythm, he changes the structure as he goes along, forgets the words and makes up new ones, you name it, he does it.

It's a great way to put my other bands/projects in perspective, and to remind me not to get too anal about all this.

[Coilte]

It is often said that.. "the camera never lies.." neither does the recorder. Recording a practice session or a gig, often gives the whole band a different aspect as to their over all performance. Sometimes what you think is good and tight, often turns out to be mediocre...or worse.

The main thing is that you all have learned from this experience, so in that sense, it was constructive.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Coilte

[Coilte]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1427885181' post='2735371']
On the other hand, and partly to rein myself in a bit, I deliberately remain in one band where the word "loose" doesn't even begin to describe it. Every song is chaos, every set is complete anarchy, you never know what the leader is going to do next ... he routinely starts songs in the wrong key, or the wrong speed, or even the wrong rhythm, he changes the structure as he goes along, forgets the words and makes up new ones, you name it, he does it.

It's a great way to put my other bands/projects in perspective, and to remind me not to get too anal about all this.
[/quote]

It might give perspective...but is it an enjoyable and fulfilling band to be in ? Sounds frustrating..to say the least.

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1427884164' post='2735351']
Timing separates the good players from everyone else.
[/quote]

Couldnt agree more with this, and have always been of the same view point. I think that's why it was such a slap in the face when i heard it all back.

We are all friends in the band so we can critique each other as harshly as needed. No one will get too butt-hurt over it.
That is definitely a positive, because at least we are all pushing in the same direction.

A "that'll do" attitude is not an option! Not for me anyway. That's just the way i was brought up though.

[spacey]

Once had a cracking 80's band, synth player, good vocalist, agents throwing work at us, outbidding each other and then someone recorded a gig and noticed a few things were not as good as they should have been, more attention to detail stuff, drum fills, odd bass lick, guitar solos, backing vox and we had a huge meeting that ended in a funeral for the band as accusations started, blame, people dont like how he speaks.
Left em to it and went to the chip shop.
Came back from the chip shop and there was no band.
Only bonus was the keyboard players special Cod with Scampi bits needed eating, he had stormed and the singer was off as well

From this I learnt a golden rule.
No tapes and no funerals for gigs, just re-visit old songs and tighten up what you do as a band by agreeing to re-learn those dragging tracks onr ones you half finished.

Bad gig ? no funeral, move on, keep going forward.

[CHW]

The satisfied with mediocrity thing is probably more frustrating-

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1427885681' post='2735380']
From this I learnt a golden rule.
No tapes and no funerals for gigs, just re-visit old songs and tighten up what you do as a band by agreeing to re-learn those dragging tracks onr ones you half finished.

Bad gig ? no funeral, move on, keep going forward.
[/quote]

Im sure there wil be no funeral...I hope that isn't the case anyway haha.
I don't think we need to re-learn them as such either. Just need to tighten up, like you said.

[Thurbs]

Care to share the recording? I recorded all my gig and you can always pick holes in it...

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='CHW' timestamp='1427885688' post='2735382']
The satisfied with mediocrity thing is probably more frustrating-
[/quote]

Yeh, i don't think i'd be happy in a band if this was the general attitude

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='Thurbs' timestamp='1427886388' post='2735405']
Care to share the recording? I recorded all my gig and you can always pick holes in it...
[/quote]

Ummmmmmmmm. Not really. I don't mind people picking holes in my playing, that isn't an issue. I mean, i've posted this topic openly critisizing my own playing!
But there is the whole, once it's out in internet land, it's always out there. I could PM you the link if you really want?

[anaxcrosswords]

One of the biggest frustrations can be tight rehearsals leading to rough gigs. We’ve always recorded rehearsals and, mostly, they’ve been of a standard that would be quite impressive live. Too often, though, live performances haven’t matched rehearsal quality – I very much doubt it’s nerves; I think, mostly, one or two people get a little bit excited and forget to stick to the script, so tempo is affected and you end up with unexpected fills and improvs.
Bassists have the additional problem of being part of a two-man unit, and if you can’t absolutely key in with your drummer the results can be messy. Had an (unsuccessful) audition last night; the whole band was very good but the drummer in particular made things easy for me by sticking to tempo and not varying patterns of the songs we repeated. Skin thrashers like that are hard to find.

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='anaxcrosswords' timestamp='1427888613' post='2735443']
get a little bit excited and forget to stick to the script, so tempo is affected and you end up with unexpected fills and improvs.
[/quote]

This is definitely part of the problem. ALL of our songs are played faster in a gig compared to at practice.
Our drummer is aware though, and in all fairness is a cracking drummer. Just gets a bit too excited, as you say. I think we agreed a metronome will be useful from now on.
But it is still my fault if my playing is lax. Cant be using that as an excuse.

[Bilbo]

This is a complex issue.

Firstly, we all spend our lives listening to music recorded in clinically perfect circumstances and then play gigs where the environment is less conducive. We rehearse in the same place week after week with the same gear and often 'in the round' and then, the first time we play anywhere, we have to deal with a new room, background noise, poor eye-lines, anxiety, self-talk etc etc. We have periods when we are hitting and othjers when we are not for any one of 1,000 reasons. How much individual practice do we do (I never do nearly enough). What I am saying is that often the cards are stacked against us. For Jazz musicians, add the fact that you are almost always making stuff up as you go along. It ain't going to be perfect every time.

Analysis of a recording is useful but it is more useful to analyse a [i]series of gigs[/i] rather than one. Understanding the direction of travel is as important as a sample of one gig. Use the intelligence gained to inform your devellopment but don't beat yourself up, it can become counter productive as your confidence goes and your playing suffers as a result. In truth, we are all able to improve and recognising that fact soes not mean that what we are doing has no value. Being 'tight' is not the only approach and an over rehearsed band can be a turn off as much as a sloppy one.