ambient Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 [quote name='cytania' timestamp='1425367910' post='2706500'] What a load of b*ll*cks this [/quote] Pretty much sums up this whole site recently. Nice to be so open minded about stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooks79 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I really like reading stuff like this, I find it fascinating, whether correct or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Surely it's a slightly less extreme example of down-tuning a semitone because it "sounds heavier"? The best reason I could think of for using A432 is to wind up people trying to play along with your recordings without either pitch-shifting the recording or having to retune! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 [quote name='Wooks79' timestamp='1425384250' post='2706690'] I really like reading stuff like this, I find it fascinating, whether correct or not. [/quote] That's the same as me. I heard it mentioned by a tutor last year, then a friend posted a link on Facebook about it last week. Stuff like this is interesting, and rightly or wrongly, a lot of people believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Arkadin Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Sure it's interesting but I don't just accept stuff, I like to investigate and come to my own conclusions. Ask your tutor where he got that number from, because if it's any of that stuff I linked to it is nonsense. You don't even have to use common sense if you are lacking in that, just do the maths (literally in this case). It doesn't add up. Picking a different centre frequency does make your music sound different, but it won't make it more harmonious with the universe or the water in your body. These people seem to conveniently forget that we use a compromised equal temperament system. So your start frequency gets divided in some nasty ways. You'd need some system based on pure fractions to maintain the 'purity' of that number (if there was such a thing). Additionally, using any kind of fretted system (excluding compensated frets) like guitars and bass you're using a further compromise of the already compromised equal tempered system. Edited March 3, 2015 by Mr Arkadin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyKnees Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Ha, I posted about this 432Hz stuff a while back. A hippy dippy goji berry munching friend of mine told me all about it in excited reverential tones. When he told me that it contained 'more harmonics' I practically fell about laughing. A good debunking can be found here... [url="http://www.miltonline.com/2014/01/07/hertz-so-good/"]http://www.miltonline.com/2014/01/07/hertz-so-good/[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I thought the A432 went from Bristol to Old Sodbury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 [quote name='Mr Arkadin' timestamp='1425389382' post='2706772'] Sure it's interesting but I don't just accept stuff, I like to investigate and come to my own conclusions. Ask your tutor where he got that number from, because if it's any of that stuff I linked to it is nonsense. You don't even have to use common sense if you are lacking in that, just do the maths (literally in this case). It doesn't add up. Picking a different centre frequency does make your music sound different, but it won't make it more harmonious with the universe or the water in your body. These people seem to conveniently forget that we use a compromised equal temperament system. So your start frequency gets divided in some nasty ways. You'd need some system based on pure fractions to maintain the 'purity' of that number (if there was such a thing). Additionally, using any kind of fretted system (excluding compensated frets) like guitars and bass you're using a further compromise of the already compromised equal tempered system. [/quote] Ahh the Beatles would have sounded SO much nicer had they been of equal temperament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Arkadin Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1425395216' post='2706882'] I thought the A432 went from Bristol to Old Sodbury. [/quote] True, but you only feel the benefit of the road during an equinox, and if the rings of Saturn are in Uranus. Edited March 3, 2015 by Mr Arkadin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 [quote name='Mr Arkadin' timestamp='1425395584' post='2706894'] ....and if the rings of Saturn are in Uranus. [/quote]I felt like that after a particularly incendiary lamb madras last weekend... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Wooks79' timestamp='1425384250' post='2706690'] I really like reading stuff like this, I find it fascinating, whether correct or not. [/quote] As do I. The issues and history surrounding 'standard' concert pitch are entirely fascinating. The various shifts over time are a reflection of musical evolution and of human reactions to sound. I am glad that the OP started this thread even though it now appears he may not be of like mind. Which is a shame. So while I might explore the comedic possibilities deriving from history I certainly wouldn't draw a line to denote an impermeable boundary between sense and nonsense. Life's much too interesting and unpredictable for a hobbyist forum to be laying down the law about what is - in part - a matter of perception and therefore far from being a measurable absolute Edited March 3, 2015 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzneck Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Well said, Skank. I concur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 [quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1425409066' post='2707071'] Well said, Skank. I concur. [/quote] Me too. All hail the Skankster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 [quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1425393110' post='2706839'] A good debunking can be found here... [url="http://www.miltonline.com/2014/01/07/hertz-so-good/"]http://www.miltonlin.../hertz-so-good/[/url] [/quote] Nice. "It’s like moving a Rembrandt painting a fraction of an inch down a wall and claiming an improvement." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliasMooseblaster Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) I shall ignore the instinct to rubbish the original article, and try to contribute something more conversational: surely one key question is, [i]can the human ear actually detect the difference[/i]? Obviously we now have digital tuners (or even programs on our smartphones) which tell us how close our 'A' is to 440 Hz, but a large swathe of popular music will not have been recorded with the luxury of such accurate tuning. Bear in mind that the next semitone down on this scale is somewhere in the region of [s]422 Hz[/s]*, so tuning to A432 is roughly equivalent to tuning a quarter-tone flat. "Back in the day," if you had a keyboard player on the session, most bands would have had to tune to the piano. The piano would (hopefully) have been tuned by a professional piano tuner, who would either have used tuning forks or relied on the gift of "perfect pitch." But how good a guide are those, when you're then relying on either your ear's comparison between the fork and the piano strings, or the piano strings and your own mental reference point? In one of the stranger recording sessions I was ever hired for, I was asked to recreate the basslines on samples of some old '70s soul records. For each sample the guy wanted me to play over, we had to re-tune my bass up or down by about a quarter-tone because Isaac Hayes' band was tuned slightly flat or sharp back on that day in 1974 or whatever. Some of them certainly would have been closer to an A432 tuning than A440, some were probably closer to A443. I can't say that any of them felt more or less "natural" depending on the tuning, so I remain sceptical. *Edit: sorry, ignore my sloppy maths; I believe it should be closer to 415 Hz! Edited March 4, 2015 by EliasMooseblaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I'd say it's definitely possible that you can hear the difference, and different tunings probably suit different pieces of music. But, yeh, it's like putting a capo on isn't it? Dropping the song up or down a semitone... how many hertz is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1425484211' post='2707822'] Dropping the song up or down a semitone... how many hertz is that? [/quote] The difference in Hertz between notes a semitone apart depends upon which two notes as its a logarithmic scale (which is why the frets get closer together as you go up the neck of a bass) but if A is 440Hz then Ab one semitone down is 415.3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliusmonk Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 It would be interesting if someone would study tunings of great recordings of the past - perhaps the 'hit' or 'artistic' factor would be systematically related to specific frequencies because people would 'feel better' listening to that... It would be purely circumstantial I guess. I'm thinking old pianos in specific recording studios, etc... I'm probably just talking nonsense here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cytania Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 There are plenty of examples of hit records that are slightly sharp or flat. Sometimes this was band tuning to piano/keyboard, sometimes it was due to tape speed adjustment either deliberate or accidental. It's possible that slightly increased tape speed gives a more dynamic feel but I'm not sure a song is a hit due to sharpened pitch. All academic these days as tracks can be tweaked in tempo while keeping the key the same. If I came over as intolerant earlier then it was my BS detector overloading. Arguments based on the innate rightness of past times or the superiority/uniqueness of particular cultures/nations do that to me 😈 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 It has been alleged that popular beat combo AC/DC currently tune a quarter tone flat to accommodate Mr Brian Johnson's advancing years. Frankly, I'd see that as something of a triumph given the loveable Geordie's spectacular yelpiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3below Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) All this talk of A432 is just lowering the pitch of this institution. We should aim higher. Edited March 4, 2015 by 3below Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 I had to learn a set of songs once, included was a Rolling Stones number, though I've no idea which one. That was about half a semitone flat, I'm guessing they maybe tuned to a piano that was in the studio, not realising/caring that it wasn't at concert pitch. This is the piece that I recorded using the lowered tuning - [url="https://soundcloud.com/an-ending-ascend/02032015a"]https://soundcloud.com/an-ending-ascend/02032015a[/url] It's noticeably different to me, but I'm used to how I usually sound, the bass feels very different though, again that's probably because I spend a lot of time playing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 After I come across something I usually lose interest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1425395518' post='2706891'] Ahh the Beatles would have sounded SO much nicer had they been of equal temperament. [/quote] I thought Ringo was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1425488504' post='2707857'] The difference in Hertz between notes a semitone apart depends upon which two notes as its a logarithmic scale (which is why the frets get closer together as you go up the neck of a bass) but if A is 440Hz then Ab one semitone down is 415.3 [/quote] Interesting! So tuning to A432 would be about a third of a semi-tone down. It doesn't seem that significant really When I put a capo on to change a whole piece of music up a semi tone, it definitely changes the "feel" of the music, but I doubt that's anything to do with any "natural frequencies". I find the idea that EVERYTHING will sound better in one tuning or another a bit absurd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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