Modes

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='Romberg Bevel' timestamp='1452385512' post='2949578']


Can you cite any sources for this? I've never encountered this interpretation. Dominant always relates to the fifth degree. I understand that the term 'Dominant Seventh' has been borrowed to describe a chord of that type (and causes much confusion in the process), but is that now contracted to 'dominant' to mean the same thing?
[/quote]

At the risk of sounding flippant, my sources would be Western music since the time of Bach ;-)
Primary Dominant resolution is V - I, but within a key there are also possible Secondary Dominants, Extended Dominants and Special Function Dominants (I7, IV7 and bVII7 which are often static or don't employ traditional dominant cyclic motion). Such is the strength of dominant harmonic motion.
You're correct in that dominant 7th is usually contracted to dominant, yeah.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1452303479' post='2948802']
It's important to remember that the designation "Dominant" in reference to the 5th degree of the key only applies to the major key. I
[/quote]

From [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_(music)"]Wikipedia[/url]

"[color=#252525][font=sans-serif]In [/font][/color][url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory"]music theory[/url][color=#252525][font=sans-serif], the dominant [/font][/color][url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(music)"]triad[/url][color=#252525][font=sans-serif] (3-note chord) is a major triad, symbolized by the [/font][/color][url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numeral_analysis"]Roman numeral[/url][color=#252525][font=sans-serif] V, if it is within the major diatonic scale (for example G-B-D in C major). It is, however, a minor triad, denoted v, [i]if it is within the minor diatonic scale (for example G-B[/i][/font][/color][i][color=#252525]♭[/color][/i][color=#252525][font=sans-serif][i]-D in C minor)[/i]. [/font][/color][color=#252525][font=sans-serif]"[/font][/color]

[color=#252525][font=sans-serif]Admittedly modes are a bit a grey area.[/font][/color]

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1452590837' post='2951332']


From [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_(music)"]Wikipedia[/url]

"[color=#252525][font=sans-serif]In [/font][/color][url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory"]music theory[/url][color=#252525][font=sans-serif], the dominant [/font][/color][url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(music)"]triad[/url][color=#252525][font=sans-serif] (3-note chord) is a major triad, symbolized by the [/font][/color][url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numeral_analysis"]Roman numeral[/url][color=#252525][font=sans-serif] V, if it is within the major diatonic scale (for example G-B-D in C major). It is, however, a minor triad, denoted v, [i]if it is within the minor diatonic scale (for example G-B[/i][/font][/color][i][color=#252525]♭[/color][/i][color=#252525][font=sans-serif][i]-D in C minor)[/i]. [/font][/color][color=#252525][font=sans-serif]"[/font][/color]

[color=#252525][font=sans-serif]Admittedly modes are a bit a grey area.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

Yeah, sure; I probably didn't put that well. Obviously there's minor key harmony as well.

To be honest, I'm not that interested in a lot of classical theory in terms of pointless nomenclature of scale degrees and varying names for the same interval etc. It just causes confusion; like the "dominant" related stuff.
Best description of music theory I heard was from a Berklee professor: "Theory exists to explain what we hear."

[Nicko]

Damn, I'm more confused now than I was before. My simpleton take on modes has always been "it ain't the notes you play, its the notes you resolve to." Yes, the chords change, yes, the theory is is a bit confusing but ultimately use your ears. When someone mildly interested in music theory asks me about modes I tell then to check out something like Knights of Cydonia by Muse. It has a feel that you cant replicate with traditional majpr/minor harmony. For those that know a bit of theory they should all understand the difference between Am and C major. These are simply two modes of the same scale and share the same notes.

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1453834830' post='2963290']
Damn, I'm more confused now than I was before. My simpleton take on modes has always been "it ain't the notes you play, its the notes you resolve to." Yes, the chords change, yes, the theory is is a bit confusing but ultimately use your ears. When someone mildly interested in music theory asks me about modes I tell then to check out something like Knights of Cydonia by Muse. It has a feel that you cant replicate with traditional majpr/minor harmony. For those that know a bit of theory they should all understand the difference between Am and C major. These are simply two modes of the same scale and share the same notes.
[/quote]
Yeah, target notes to resolve to, absolutely. These usually turn out to be chord tones.

Don't know Muse's music; but a quick glance at the chords online reveals pretty obvious and explainable Harmony. I'll give it a listen when I've got time and see if the guys are just playing a straight Aeolian/Natural minor over all the chords, which should work fine on a rock vibe.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1452165210' post='2947112']
Ah so whilst learning the rules, I am also free to ignore the rules if I want to sound "clashing" or "add tension"? That doesn't really help encourage learning the rules!
[/quote]

Well it should do because it lets you determine ahead of time whether you going to get a "nice" or "clashing" sound from a particular note, Theory gives you options, which ones you choose is purely artistic choice.

[fatback]

I'm finding a surprising benefit to working with modes. I've completely stopped playing and thinking in fingering patterns. Working with modes makes me think in terms of scales and note names.

I don't get time to practice anything now but the modes of every major scale and their arpeggios. Staggeringly boring but it keeps me going when I don't have the brain cells to play actual music. I didn't expect it to change the way I think. Every chord now is a mode choice for me, and so I think of the scale under the mode of the chord, complete with note names, not a mindless pattern.

Amazingly different. And I never was clever about these things.

[Wylie]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1452091383' post='2946281']
Thank you, that helps a bit. I suspect I am overthinking it. I have always added runs in my playing that are basically going up and down a scale (or pausing and doing it twice, for interest...), but based on the "root" (dominant?) key of what we are playing in, is it permissible to play any of the modes over it?

I am mainly hung up on the fact that the actual notes played are all [i]identical[/i] between the modes. If a song is in E minor, I know I can play G major over the top and they are identical notes. This is a mode, surely?

But they are still the same notes so I don't fully understand (at all?) how it helps with playing because I'll still be putting in exactly the same notes. So the mood of the song does not suddenly change, as they are the same notes.
[/quote]

This replies to an older post, but I think the answer to your question is yes, you are playing the same notes in each mode within a key, but the relationship of those notes in each mode determines its 'mood.' For example, in C, the D Dorian mode has both a minor flavor and a major flavor: play the first three notes--sounds minor because of the third note being in the flatted-third position of a minor chord. The rest of the scale does not sound minor. So, yes, all those notes are in the C major scale, but the 'mood' of the Dorian mode/scale is distinctive. The trick with playing modes is to avoid running through them indiscriminately. You would be hitting the right notes, but risk ending up with alphabet soup instead of a focused improvisation.