flyfisher Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1413615637' post='2580102'] Maybe they're heading back to an early-80s style contraction, cutting the line back to a handful of the most popular instruments, and scaling back production...? Wouldn't be a bad thing from a brand POV. [/quote] But if they really do have hundreds of millions of debt then that may not be an option, because a scaled back business might not generate enough to service those debts, never mind actually repay them. I guess this is what the proposed IPO was intended to fix, it it's a one-time action and if it doesn't raise enough to clear the debts then it could leave them in a worse state than they are now. Skank has rightly noted the characteristics of VC investors but at least they can still be tempted with the promise of a profitable IPO. If that scenario is receding then FMIC's fate might well be determined by the patience of the VCs. That said, I can't believe the brand will ever disappear, but who knows what manner of Phoenix might arise from the financial ashes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1413628281' post='2580268'] ... I can't believe the brand will ever disappear ... [/quote] It would seem unlikely. The brand name is itself a valuable asset that could be sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 [quote name='Diablo' timestamp='1413624722' post='2580219'] Accountants, VC's and the like are a funny bunch. Take a company started by an enthusiast and technical specialist to build excellent products, the best possible, then take it to market. Now expand out and you need capital, then it goes wrong. Decision makers are only looking at spreadsheets, couldn't give a toss about your basswood, pots, magic O2 free copper windings etc. I deal with quite a few London based finance types as part of my engineering consultancy. I'm constantly amazed by how little any of these very wealthy people know about the markets/investments they are looking at from the technical side. They have much more fancy suits than me, and a nicer office, and know more about business finance than I ever will (or want to..) but to them wood is wood, and copper wire is copper wire, and their first phone call after investment is to China! [/quote] Good points there, which highlight the very different skills needed to run a successful business. The enthusiasts and tech specialists can become so enthralled in the product design that they can't see beyond everyone wanting one and the VC types have the necessary ruthlessness to only focus on the money-making potential. This is played out, albeit in somewhat pantomime style, in Dragon's Den for all to see. While I'm sure we wished it wasn't always this way, it's funny how the VCs are the ones with all the spare money to invest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 [quote name='Chiliwailer' timestamp='1413623461' post='2580204'] I've heard within the MI that Fender will be cutting back the range and making their dealer selection tougher, [/quote] There's definitely some 'behind the scenes' stuff going on but I haven't seen it in a public arena yet. I'm sure it'll be in MI Pro fairly soon though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I don't agree with the thoughts that only the US models should be branded Fender. You could say the same for a lot of companies (Lakland, MTD for example). I think it's a good move by Fender because it opens up the range to all levels of players, and let's be honest, Fender is still an aspirational brand for a lot of people, so to be able to buy a genuine Fender on a budget is good for both the customer and the company. What I do think is that there are too many variations in their line-Standard,Special, Deluxe, FSR, Signature etc. Most are just slight variations of each other, and they could easily bring the line down to a few standard models to cater for different budgets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 As somebody who really doesn't get on with Fenders, I think it would be a tragedy if they did disappear as they are no doubt an iconic brand and responsible for a lot of good things generally. I agree with most of the above on the confusing model line-up, and the Fender logo being on the USA instruments only. FWIW I would also say that having set the benchmark for playable basses, they seem to just be trading off that without any real innovation. The number of Super Jazzes and the like that the boutique guys build must surely have been noticed at FMIC. Why don't they do some proper R&D and develop the next icon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 [quote name='BurritoBass' timestamp='1413619812' post='2580139'] It's been said before. I'm sure they'll be around for a good while yet. [/quote] I think you`re spot on there Tim. No matter what "problems/issues/trouble" Fender are having, out of the many brands I`ve tried, their basses are still the best for me, and countless others too, I`m sure. [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1413626051' post='2580241'] ...and actually, one of the last 'new' Fenders to grab my by the lapels was a Mexican road-worn J. [/quote] The Road Worns are fantastic basses, not overkeen on fake relicing but they play/sound superb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 [quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1413617024' post='2580112'] I too think that they've diversified the model range too much - the brand has lost focus and identity. [/quote] Like the Pawnshop range? What the hell was that all about? Was it the Gibson Sonex that was said to be made of some kind of "wonderful composite" - which was quickly slagged off as the sweepings off the workshop floor mixed with glue? I remember the slaggings it got when I was a kid. The Fender pawnshop range looked to me like a similar desperate grab to "clear out the spares cupboards and get something, anything, out there" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiliwailer Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 [quote name='Diablo' timestamp='1413627789' post='2580260'] Maybe so, but once I set it up well and sorted out the wiring problems the low end punch, especially in drop tuning, is so much clearer than, dare I say it, either of my Fenders. It is my "go-to" bass for Get Over It now! [/quote] I didn't mean to dismiss it as just a cheap freebie! Just trying to help you put the puzzle together, :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger2611 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 A lot of people have commented on the range being too diverse for its own good, I agree when it comes to the mainstay instruments like the Strat and Tele and to some extent the Precision and Jazz, there must be 100+ different variations of the Strat on the market now covering all price ranges and just about every spec and colour....I think this makes the range confusing and devalues the guitar somewhat, however, the range diversification has allowed me to buy a Bass V1 at an affordable price something I would not have been able to do without the cheaper ranges. Build quality wise, every guitar is different, I have a Mexican 50's Classic Precision and to me it is the best [s]Precision[/s] bass I own, I have a 62 std reissue Jap Strat which again is fantastic I did own a 2012 Strat which again was fantastic the key being try before you buy and that way you buy the guitar that feels best to you. It will be a shame to see Fender reduce the options available to us but I can see the need to do so, what concerns me more is (and please tell me if I am wrong) Fender still do all of the distribution for Gretsch, which has been built up from near extinction over the past twenty years I would hate to see Gretsch fail because of market repositioning by Fender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1413635359' post='2580371'] Like the Pawnshop range? What the hell was that all about? [/quote] I suspect the Pawnshop range was Mr Justin Norvell bringing some of his trademark 'wackiness' across from his tenure at Squier. There wasn't / isn't much in the Pawnshop line that appealed to me but I suppose it was an attempt to get away from 'another Strat, another Tele' without losing the headstock / offset DC design cues. Same with the PS guitar amps; ditch the black tolex boxes and try something a bit garish. That said, re-booting the Squier '51 and Super-Sonics as PS guitars at about three times the Squier price was an unwise move. I like the amps, though. Under normal circs I might have snagged an Excelsior by now. In any event, it looks like I'll be denied the chance of a Squier Electric Xii RI. [size=3][b]'No Smurf-Hats for 2015'[/b]: Ongoing dismay [/size] Edited October 18, 2014 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Just remember one thing when you're saying that products made in China are cheap and crap. All of your iMacs, MacBook Pros and iPhones are all made in China. Cheap crap yeah? I don't think the country of origin can be seen as a sign of quality. As someone mentioned above, the variance in quality of the US models is what's damaging the brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybassplayer Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) Victims of their own success ??? The Strat, Tele, Jazz and Precision remain virtually the same as the first ones made. They hardly decrease in value. Eventually a lot of them increase in value. The customer base on the whole keep them in superb condition. They don't rust. They need relatively little maintenance and unless taken to stupidly extreme measures should never ever break !! I could go on. Compare that business model to a quality but high volume car manufacturer !!! Edited October 18, 2014 by tonybassplayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Fender has no God given right to exist. Ask Pan Am, the British motor cycle industry and the French aristocracy about that. But they will continue in the short term because they owe too much to be shut down. Their business model has been wrong for years. If they don't get that right they'll be split up and sold off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I was wondering when the British motorcycle industry would come up I see them as two bits of wood made by a machine screwed together,I don't see how there can be much difference from one to the next if you know how to set it up? Same goes for the comments regarding lime light etc, not exactly hand made like a Fodera are they. Still if I see a nice jazz five I might grab it as I have an F hole in my collection right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynottfan Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) Far to many Signature models, it has got really silly now, next it will be Penry the mild mannered janitors sig bass. Roadworns are a good bang for the buck especially secondhand, but some of the pricingfor the USA non custom shop stuff is crazy. I wish them well and hope they sort it out but certainly the brand has been devalued, I know how Leo started it all and the ethos behind it regarding the manufacturing process etc... but there are some shocking Fender USA out there and for the money there shouldn't be imho. Edited October 18, 2014 by Lynottfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 +1 on the above. Too much variety in the ranges. Saying that, when I buy another Fender, it would be a MIA for sure. Have tried the cheaper stuff, but it just doesn't do it for me. Maybe it's subliminal! I'm sure they'll carry on. But they do need a re-jig - can't see them dumping half of the range, though. More importantly, I'll never understand why they don't make a decent MIA '51-style Precision in the MIA range. I'd buy one today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1413638404' post='2580411'] I suspect the Pawnshop range was Mr Justin Norvell bringing some of his trademark 'wackiness' [/quote] Is he the 'chase me' fellow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1413639564' post='2580425'] ....I was wondering when the British motorcycle industry would come up.... [/quote] Happy to oblige..... Fender have lost the plot. Bono on the board? wtf! What problem was that move supposed to fix!! Where's Jeff Genzler? Buried in an office counting widgets? They need the likes of Jeff or Dan Lakin on the board with the power to get things done! Edited October 18, 2014 by chris_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1413642068' post='2580461'] Is he the 'chase me' fellow? [/quote] Nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1413642068' post='2580461'] Is he the 'chase me' fellow? [/quote] [size=3][b]Norvelle[/b]: Fender Top Honcho[/size] [size=3][/size] [size=3][b]Norvell[/b]: Heterosexual comedian posing as stereotypical camp guy[/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlfer Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) Cut down range of instruments, increased range of colours. I gig pretty much most weeks with one band or another, my Mexican FSR is my go to all the time. One of the best I've ever had. There have been a few I do hope Fender come out of this, but the thing that concerns me now is there must be literally billions of guitars in ownership and surely the market must be more difficult now, with decreasing numbers of players? I know some of us try to take up the slack , but surely it effects the "new" market? Edited October 18, 2014 by karlfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 If I had to pick two lost Gems in the branding mess over the years, it was the Squire Mex jazz bass 70' reissue(poor pic ups excused) . Proof they can make nice stuff if allowed and the Squire Mat Freeman precision , which could have easily worn the Fender Logo with pride. When they get it right they do and well ! People will pay for quality stuff, that is what they have lost focus of. Personally, as i re-iterate I hope they go down and the Fender brand is bought by a bespoke maker of quality who starts putting out what they should have been making years ago. Quality, hand checked instruments that are worth paying a premium for. Be happy to pay the staff a living wage, make a reasonable return and stop trying to take over the world with cloned instruments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzneck Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Interesting but price does not equal cost. Most successful businesses seem to focus on maximizing quality whilst minimizing cost, keeping overheads low and giving the customer what he wants. Fender may have missed the point that the majority of the Fenderphiles out here want 50s or 60s Teles, Starts, Ps and J's in classic custom colours. Why not sell off the dross, clear the debt and concentrate on a limited range which suits the market, keeping the CS for specials. I suspect they are too big and clever to do that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miles'tone Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 [quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1413648768' post='2580561'] Interesting but price does not equal cost. Most successful businesses seem to focus on maximizing quality whilst minimizing cost, keeping overheads low and giving the customer what he wants. Fender may have missed the point that the majority of the Fenderphiles out here want 50s or 60s Teles, Starts, Ps and J's in classic custom colours. Why not sell off the dross, clear the debt and concentrate on a limited range which suits the market, keeping the CS for specials. I suspect they are too big and clever to do that [/quote] Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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