Can modern amps sound as good as all-valve vintage gear?

[Bassnut62]

Comrades, I need help........


I have a silver-face Fender Bassman 135 rig that delivers incredible tone, bounce and head-room, through vintage 1x15 or 2x15 cabs.

Now I am playing guitar, rather than bass; so I've put the Bassman rig in storage until I play bass again....by which time I could be pushing 60!

Someone has offered me a good price for the Bassman 135 head and I am not sure if I should sell; though I already sold him the 2x15 cab.

It took me 12 years to find 'that sound' and I have never considered another amp since I got the Bassman rig in '93; though it is heavy and bulky to move about and I have already had some back problems.

If I did sell, I would want to know that I could get similarly great tones and 'bounce' out of a modern rig, if and when I need a bass rig again.

So...[list=1]
[*]Can modern (more-portable) amps and cabs produce the godly sound and feel of a vintage all-valve amp and well-built cab with at least one 15" driver?
[*]Apart from the obvious weight/bulk advantage, what other good and bad qualities would I need to know about with 21st century amps/cabs/combos?
[/list]


Thanks for your help

[charic]

This would be an ideal test for a Kemper Profiling Amp

[andydye]

not if the exact sound you want is the sound of an all valve rig, modern digital/solid state/etc stuff sounds good (if you like it) but not the same at all

Edited March 18, 2014 by andydye

[Bassman Steve]

I have been exactly there. About 35 years ago I discovered the joy of a 2x15 bass cab. Back then it was an Ampeg V4B cab with a Sound City 120. Then came Boogie cabs and Orange 120's until I got my Bass 400. I have cheerfully carted around that rig for years never expecting to hear anything comparable.

Ok, in truth I haven't found anything the same BUT I bought an Ampeg PF500 and matching 1x15 cab (I wanted somerthing portable but big sounding for rehearsals/studio work) and was amazed at how good it sounded. I replaced that with a Boogie Walkabout Scout 15. Both of those rigs had incredible punch and depth and very much reminded me of my usual stage sound.

They're not exactly the same but both did an excellent job and I have used them without feeling I was missing anything too much. That said, for real gigs I wouldn't want to use anything but the full blown valve set-up but you would do a lot worse than consider the Portaflex. There's one going now I think.

[lemmywinks]

Keep the head, get a lighter (and better) cab.

Edited March 18, 2014 by lemmywinks

[Pow_22]

In short - No.

All these emulaters, modellers and pedals - im yet to use or hear anything that comes remotely close to THAT all valve sound

[No lust in Jazz]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#222222]If belting out disco / funk music through a PA at a party event, so long as I have a reasonable Bass tone I don't worry about nuances, if I were playing a quiet jazz type gig – I would.[/color]

[color=#000000][color=#222222]I’d sum it up like this. The bass player with Queens of the Stone Age who uses many esoteric vintage brands of amp when recording, is often seen livewith TC electronic gear, he’s not short of people to transport and maintain the valve gear, but I guess because it travels better than the other stuff and the tone isn’t too far removed from what the QoTSA want that he uses it.[/color][/color][/font][/size]

Edited March 18, 2014 by No lust in Jazz

[Beer of the Bass]

I would say yes to "as good as" but no to "the same as", if that makes any sense!

[HowieBass]

I guess we can train our ears to discern differences between various types of string, pickup, amp/combo but I wonder if the casual listener at a gig notices or even cares...

[Dad3353]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1395149437' post='2399175']
I guess we can train our ears to discern differences between various types of string, pickup, amp/combo but I wonder if the casual listener at a gig notices or even cares...
[/quote]

Many don't know which band is playing. Some don't realise there [i]is [/i]a band. A few hadn't even realised there's music playing..!

[Bassnut62]

thanks for v useful thoughts.....so far it seems like I need to keep the Bassman 135 head and 1x15 cab or be forever disappointed by modern 'cleverer' gear.

Howie makes a good point too.....I know you're right that most of the audience won't notice or care; but I enjoy playing more and probably play better when I enjoy the sound more.
Playing with a good all-valve amp and big cab sound feels v physical to me and I think I would really miss that.

Would love to hear more from advocates of modern gear, especially on its other pros/cons vs. vintage all valve rigs....
Are there any musical elements to modern gear that may be different but just as special as that warmth and bounce you get from old valve amps?

Edited March 18, 2014 by Bassnut62

[brensabre79]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1395149437' post='2399175']
I guess we can train our ears to discern differences between various types of string, pickup, amp/combo but I wonder if the casual listener at a gig notices or even cares...
[/quote]
I doubt even the experienced listener will be able to tell the real thing from an emulator within the mix of a live band. The only person who will know is the player.
For me, running an all-valve amp is more about the feel and response than it is about the tone. I actually prefer the tone I get from my Carvin car stereo amp than the all-valve lump I have, but I take the lump to gigs because it's so much more satisfying to play through.

[Bassnut62]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1395150573' post='2399197']
I doubt even the experienced listener will be able to tell the real thing from an emulator within the mix of a live band. The only person who will know is the player.
For me, running an all-valve amp is more about the feel and response than it is about the tone. I actually prefer the tone I get from my Carvin car stereo amp than the all-valve lump I have, but I take the lump to gigs because it's so much more satisfying to play through.
[/quote]

that's what I'm talking about, exactly!
surely with all the wizardry available today, you would think someone would have come up with something that 'feels' as good as the old lumps......

[Bassnut62]

[quote name='Bassman Steve' timestamp='1395143899' post='2399089']
I have been exactly there. About 35 years ago I discovered the joy of a 2x15 bass cab. Back then it was an Ampeg V4B cab with a Sound City 120. Then came Boogie cabs and Orange 120's until I got my Bass 400. I have cheerfully carted around that rig for years never expecting to hear anything comparable.

Ok, in truth I haven't found anything the same BUT I bought an Ampeg PF500 and matching 1x15 cab (I wanted somerthing portable but big sounding for rehearsals/studio work) and was amazed at how good it sounded. I replaced that with a Boogie Walkabout Scout 15. Both of those rigs had incredible punch and depth and very much reminded me of my usual stage sound.

They're not exactly the same but both did an excellent job and I have used them without feeling I was missing anything too much. That said, for real gigs I wouldn't want to use anything but the full blown valve set-up but you would do a lot worse than consider the Portaflex. There's one going now I think.
[/quote]

thanks for sharing this and while the Ampeg PF sounds interesting, I've already read many horror stories about it for reliability, the Mesa Scout 15 looks interesting though; but I get what you say about the full blown valve set up.

I used to have a Hartke 250 as back-up head and found that valve gain stage pushing a tranny power stage just doesn't do it for me; though the other way round can work, ref old MusicMan amps (but their still big and heavy)

Edited March 18, 2014 by Bassnut62

[cheddatom]

I would wait until you've found a modern rig good enough before you sell!

I would say it's definitely possible for you to find a modern rig you like as much, but only you will be able to say which rig that is, and it may take a lot of searching

I would imagine the "feel" you're getting from an all valve amp could be replicated with some clever compression. This is probably what they build in to the modellers. The Kemper is certainly very well regarded and worth a try if possible

[xgsjx]

I could say modern rigs can sound better than old vintage valve rigs, but it's subject to the rig & the user.
Some might say you can't reproduce with a modeller, it depends on the modeller that's being used. There's some brilliant valve pre pedals out thee & also some excellent software if you want to do it through your ipad.

[TheGreek]

I'd question whether the (subtle) benefits you get from the vintage valve tone actually outweigh the reality of using/moving the newer technology which weighs virtually nothing in comparison. I remember my Bassman 100 being a pain to carry (I'm sure there was a hippopotamus hiding in there somewhere) and was far more delicate that my current amp which can be thrown in a gig bag when required.

I'll take a new amp everyday day of the week..

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Bassnut62' timestamp='1395150843' post='2399200']
that's what I'm talking about, exactly!
surely with all the wizardry available today, you would think someone would have come up with something that 'feels' as good as the old lumps......
[/quote]

They have worked out how to replicate the sound - its simply transfer functions that any modern modeller can do.
What they havnt worked out to do is overcome the perceptual bias which causes the imagined difference.

Edited March 18, 2014 by bassman7755

[HowieBass]

... ah, the mysteries of valve biasing

[Bolo]

I love my new Verellen valve preamp, it does give that bounce and full-fat tone when I want it, and I switch it off to go directly into the SWR 750x which is tight like a tight thing!

[scalpy]

Admittedly my experience with this is limited to a handful of occasions but- it's 3-0 modern vs vintage.

Two vintage amps I have used were Ampeg B15s, one of which used to reside at AIR studios Monserrat. Both sounded flat, boxy and small. Now I was hugely disappointed on both occasions as like most bassists playing through one of these is an ambition, especially as most of the records I enjoy employed one. I eventually used a DI or my Hartke rig instead both times.

The last occasion was a 1972 100w HiWatt through my DB112s. It did sound good, open sounding and powerful, especially when 'jumped', but when I went back to my LMT everybody in the band recognised it was bass back in the room time. Miles more heft, more focussed and precise.

Having said that, we've plugged the same head into a vintage Marshall 412 with Greenbacks and ragged it with a Les Paul. Righteous!

[Telebass]

I used to use valve amps back in the days when there wasn't a choice. Heavy. Unreliable (and I knew how to keep it fettled!). Sounded fabulous.
I always wanted a silver face 50w Bassman and 2x15, but couldn't lift the cab.
Now I have the Barefaced Super 15, which sounds like a 2x15 should, and a Little Mark III. Good as valves sound, this is also very good.
I would say that there's not too much difference. Certainly some, but not much.

[Bassnut62]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1395175899' post='2399540']
What they havnt worked out to do is overcome the perceptual bias which causes the imagined difference.
[/quote]

Ha! Well put!....Luckily I have a bias adjust fitted in the back of my head just behind my right ear that directly controls my perceptions.....it's called Mrs Bassnut!! Boom!

I would be happy to have a lighter modern rig, if it can give me the big warm clear tones and especially the feel I like.
I think I need to go and try some modern stuff out, with all your thoughts and suggestions in my head.

Thanks all of you.

[xgsjx]

There's quite a few modern amps out there with a tube pre built in, so you might want to compare them to the non tube ones too to see which you prefer.

[Bassnut62]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1395222828' post='2399811']
There's quite a few modern amps out there with a tube pre built in, so you might want to compare them to the non tube ones too to see which you prefer.
[/quote]

will do, in general though I find tube pre-amps quite unsatisfying.....90% of the tone and bounce comes from the valve power stage though, in my experience.
I'm fine with solid state pre and valve power amp stages; but size and weight is in the power stage anyway, so would probably just go for an all valve rig.

definitely gonna check out some light modern rigs tho....