arthurhenry Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) 12th fret makes sense, but why 3, 5, 7, 9? Why not 2,4,6,8,10? Who decided and why? Another observation: Eb/D# and Ab/G# are the only notes not marked by dots on a 4 string bass. Edited February 23, 2014 by arthurhenry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maude Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I'm guessing here but if you marked the even frets then all the marks would be evenly placed, if you mark the odds and the octave (12th) then the the octave is easily distinguished as it has two spaces either side making it stand out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 [quote name='arthurhenry' timestamp='1393166163' post='2376851'] 12th fret makes sense, but why 3, 5, 7, 9? Why not 2,4,6,8,10? Who decided and why? Another observation: Eb/D# and Ab/G# are the only notes not marked by dots on a 4 string bass. [/quote] What about Bb, B, Db, F, G, ? They don't have position markers either, or have I misread ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurhenry Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 All 12 notes apart from the two I mentioned are covered by a marker somewhere on the neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbass4k Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1393167865' post='2376874'] What about Bb, B, Db, F, G, ? They don't have position markers either, or have I misread ? [/quote] In standard tuning (which is what we seem to be assuming), Bb is third fret on the G string, B is 9th fret on the D string, Db is 9th fret on the E string, F is 3rd fret on the D string and G is 5th fret on the D string, so all covered by fret markers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Not on mine, I just have 3, 5, 7, 9, 12 etc. You have dots on 1, 2, 8 and 10 then ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziphoblat Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 [quote name='Maude' timestamp='1393167273' post='2376866'] I'm guessing here but if you marked the even frets then all the marks would be evenly placed, if you mark the odds and the octave (12th) then the the octave is easily distinguished as it has two spaces either side making it stand out. [/quote] Yeap, I always figured that this was the reason for it. Having two dots as opposed to one doesn't do as much to distinguish the octave from the rest as the fact that there's a great number of "blank" frets either side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 [quote name='bobbass4k' timestamp='1393169465' post='2376899'] In standard tuning (which is what we seem to be assuming), Bb is third fret on the G string, B is 9th fret on the D string, Db is 9th fret on the E string, F is 3rd fret on the D string and G is 5th fret on the D string, so all covered by fret markers. [/quote] Sorry, I've not long been up , I did misread. I was assuming going up the frets so, B being fret 2 A string, G being 10th etc. I didn't realise the OP was meaning any Db or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Well, we know that the harmonics occur at 5, 7, 9 and 12 fret positions and it seems logical to replicate markers in the same relative positions for the next octave up (17, 19, 21 and 24) which leaves the marker at the 3rd (and sometimes 1st) fret position. This is perhaps where aesthetics (symmetry) enters where we have this common arrangement |__*_*_*_*__| as nut (open string), 2 gaps, marker (3rd), gap, marker (5th), gap, marker (7th), gap, marker (9th), 2 gaps, marker (12th/octave). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Surely this is all about finding the fret positions and that alone? It's logical to have as simple system as possible,so you can find the frets at speed. So the objective is to have as few marks as possible, whilst being effective. If you had the even positions marked (2,4,6,8,10,12) you would have more positions marked than (3,5,7,9,12). They could mark position 1, but finding the first fret shouldn't be too much of a challenge for most musicians. They could mark the 11th, but again, it's only 1 fret down from the 12th. FWIW that's my guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 In the case of basses it's probably because guitars are marked that way so why change a winning formula In guitar terms it actually makes sense as the third fret is a better marker for hand shape, in first position so to speak it marks the fret of the leading (furthest down the neck) finger for a whole host of chords so your hand shape falls into place behind them, and for the others (E, A etc) if you're at that fret marker you know you're a fret too far! After that 5 & 7 are the main tuning harmonics and so nine becomes logical as well (it also creates great progression following the dots which wouldn't happen on 2, 4, 6, 8, 10). Steve As an afterthought I've just discovered that the dots on the six string, tenor uke bodied guitar I've just bought are 3, 5, 7, [b]10[/b], 12. I suspect quality control issues! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK Jale Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 ^Not necessarily... old Martin ukes had markers at fret 5, 7 and 10, the expensive ones 3, 5, 7, 10, 12. It's a bit of a uke tradition. Pre-'30s Larson Bros guitars were 10th fret too. When I was apprenticed as a luthier I once put an octave marker at the 11th. In my defence, I was terribly hungover. New fingerboard. Ouch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) [quote name='KK Jale' timestamp='1393182836' post='2377094'] ^Not necessarily... old Martin ukes had markers at fret 5, 7 and 10, the expensive ones 3, 5, 7, 10, 12. It's a bit of a uke tradition. Pre-'30s Larson Bros guitars were 10th fret too. When I was apprenticed as a luthier I once put an octave marker at the 11th. In my defence, I was terribly hungover. New fingerboard. Ouch. [/quote] Thanks for that. I also have a "custom built" mandolin with the octave marker at 13! Steve Edited February 23, 2014 by oggiesnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassTractor Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 [quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1393184395' post='2377130'] I also have a "custom built" mandolin with the octave marker at 13! [/quote] Genius! Also, it's how experimental music was invented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 on a fretless, (with markers) do they put the markers in the middle of where the fret would be, or where the actual note is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAlonBass Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1393233337' post='2377509'] on a fretless, (with markers) do they put the markers in the middle of where the fret would be, or where the actual note is? [/quote] Both. It tends to vary from Manufacturer to Manufacturer, or even Luthier to Luthier. You have to ask, or find out yourself, when buying. Edited February 24, 2014 by BigAlonBass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Unlined fretless necks I think usually have side dots at the fret positions; with lined necks I think it's usually the dots in the same place as a fretted neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Rotten Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Is it anything to do with the white and black notes on a piano. For example - if you tune a string to C then the marked frets would be all black notes and the unmarked be all white notes? *Edit I can't work it out but I think I am wrong anyway but I can't think of any other pattern or reason. Edited February 24, 2014 by Jonnyboy Rotten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliasMooseblaster Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 [quote name='Jonnyboy Rotten' timestamp='1393241212' post='2377602'] Is it anything to do with the white and black notes on a piano. For example - if you tune a string to C then the marked frets would be all black notes and the unmarked be all white notes? *Edit I can't work it out but I think I am wrong anyway but I can't think of any other pattern or reason. [/quote] Hmm, not quite...your 3rd fret would indeed mark Eb, but then your 5, 7 and 9 would indicate F, G and A-natural. Though on that note*, it does make it very easy to track a minor pentatonic up a single string! (*No pun intended, I swear....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I always thought the standard markers were based on where the harmonics* are *I don't know the proper word for it, but those harmonics that are easy to play, obviously there are harmonics all over but they can be very difficult to get to sound [quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1393240397' post='2377587'] Unlined fretless necks I think usually have side dots at the fret positions; with lined necks I think it's usually the dots in the same place as a fretted neck. [/quote] that would seem to make sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1393248834' post='2377707'] I always thought the standard markers were based on where the harmonics* are[/quote] No because after the 12th, 7th and 5th the next easiest harmonic to sound is roughly at 4th fret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1393250861' post='2377735'] No because after the 12th, 7th and 5th the next easiest harmonic to sound is roughly at 4th fret. [/quote] I'd nominate the 9th before the harmonic near the 4th, but that's maybe because it's right over the fret so I know exactly where to find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 [quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1393251093' post='2377741'] I'd nominate the 9th before the harmonic near the 4th, but that's maybe because it's right over the fret so I know exactly where to find it. [/quote] It's the same note. It's the harmonic that splits the string into 5 equal segments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Whenever I mess about with the harmonics on the G and working my way up towards the nut I invariably find myself trying to play 'The Star Spangled Banner' with them LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1393250861' post='2377735'] No because after the 12th, 7th and 5th the next easiest harmonic to sound is roughly at 4th fret. [/quote] interesting, I thought it was the third, I'll be testing this later! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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