european 230v power

[Mark_Bass]

Hiya guys,

Im thinking of buying a bass amp from europe, the amp is 230volts, is that going to be ok here in the UK? Is there anything else i need to ask the seller to check?

Cheers

[Lozz196]

Hmmm, dunno. I looked at a Markbass amp from Thomann as it was a good deal, but it would have been European power spec. Thomann said it would be fine, both Markbass and MSL Professional who do the Markbass stuff in the UK said it wouldn`t be, and to only get one made for this countries power supply.

I`d check directly with the manufacturer, if they say yes, then go for it.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Mark_Bass' timestamp='1388425343' post='2321859']...230volts, is that going to be ok here in the UK?...[/quote]

This may guide you somewhat...

[url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Weltkarte_der_Netzspannungen_und_Netzfrequenzen.svg"]Nominal National Grid voltages...[/url]

...for our purposes, we may consider the blue ones to be compatible between themselves, as are the red ones. One may not safely mix the two. Electrical stuff from Europe works in UK. The main difference will be the cable connector to the wall outlet. This will need either an adapter or changing.
Hope this helps; subject to correction, completion or contradiction from others.

[Musky]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1388425935' post='2321867']
Hmmm, dunno. I looked at a Markbass amp from Thomann as it was a good deal, but it would have been European power spec. Thomann said it would be fine, both Markbass and MSL Professional who do the Markbass stuff in the UK said it wouldn`t be, and to only get one made for this countries power supply.

I`d check directly with the manufacturer, if they say yes, then go for it.
[/quote]
Bizarre thing to say given that EU voltages have been harmonised, and it's a legal requirement that all equipment must work within 230V +/- 10%.

[flyfisher]

Agreed.

Besides, although the mains input voltage may vary by +/-10% and still be within specification, the actual electronics of the amp (or whatever) are powered from a lower, voltage-regulated voltage controlled by the amp's power supply circuitry.

So, [u]even if[/u] the mains voltage is 207 volts (i.e. -10%) or 253 volts (i.e. +10%) or anywhere between then the actual amplifier circuitry voltage supply will still be operating from the same fixed, lower-voltage voltage it was designed for.

If the OP is buying an old amp then some care might be needed (though unlikely) but if it's a new amp then there really is no excuse for it not working correctly.

Here's some interesting reading for musos: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul03/articles/mainsproblems.asp

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1388433755' post='2321983']
[u]even if[/u] the mains voltage is 207 volts (i.e. -10%) or 253 volts (i.e. +10%) or anywhere between then the actual amplifier circuitry voltage supply will still be operating from the same fixed, lower-voltage voltage it was designed for.
[/quote]That's true with the low voltage rails powering the pre-amp, usually at +/-15v, and any DSPs, usually with 5v, as those rails deliver low current, so they can be voltage limited with zener diodes or voltage regulator chips. That's not the case with the high current rails for the power amp, which very seldom have any method of voltage regulation. But amp manufacturers build their amps to withstand fairly large voltage fluctuations, so seldom is it a problem. In the US the nominal voltage is 110, but it ranges anywhere from 100 to 125v, and you never hear of problems so long as it's within that range.
[quote]Markbass and MSL Professional who do the Markbass stuff in the UK said it wouldn`t be, and to only get one made for this countries power supply[/quote]Markbass will say that to discourage gray market sales, and MSL doesn't want you buying from Thomann.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1388441020' post='2322121']
That's not the case with the high current rails for the power amp, which very seldom have any method of voltage regulation. But amp manufacturers build their amps to withstand fairly large voltage fluctuations, so seldom is it a problem.
[/quote]

Fair point - and possibly a similar scenario with the high voltage rails for valves? (I'm not too familiar with valve designs).

Bottom though is that any half decent mains powered device should be capable of operating with its specification with quite a variation of actual mains voltage.

[Mark_Bass]

Thanks gentlefolk! That helps a lot, it's a fairly new amp ( within the last couple of years ) so it'll be ok.
Thought it would be worth double checking even though I know you can buy plug adapters etc I just wanted to make sure that there was no reason for a drop in performance etc. Cheers!

Edited December 30, 2013 by Mark_Bass

[Roland Rock]

I've just taken delivery of a 230v amp from Spain. No problems whatsoever with the UK mains voltage [size=4] [/size]

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1388449921' post='2322237']
I've just taken delivery of a 230v amp from Spain. No problems whatsoever with the UK mains voltage
[/quote]

Did youreally need Juan Moor amp..?

[Roland Rock]

:-)
I knew the voltage was safe because I read the Manuel.
It was so moorish, I just have to Javier 'nother one.

[Ed_S]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1388425935' post='2321867']
Hmmm, dunno. I looked at a Markbass amp from Thomann as it was a good deal, but it would have been European power spec. Thomann said it would be fine, both Markbass and MSL Professional who do the Markbass stuff in the UK said it wouldn`t be, and to only get one made for this countries power supply.
[/quote]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1388441020' post='2322121']
Markbass will say that to discourage gray market sales, and MSL doesn't want you buying from Thomann.
[/quote]

Usually true, but I had a problem with Tech21 gear. All their kit that I've ever seen has this panel on it with a dot in two of the boxes:

and if you buy from Thomann you get the 230V version, whereas UK stores sell the 240V. I bought an RBI from Thomann, plugged it in and destroyed it. Fortunately Thomann took the standpoint that what they're selling *should* be fine over here, so gave me a refund. For everything since, I've just sent a quick email to the manufacturer and asked if they foresee any issue. All so far have said 'go ahead - it'll be fine'.

[RandomBass]

[quote name='Ed_S' timestamp='1388481624' post='2322377']
Usually true, but I had a problem with Tech21 gear. All their kit that I've ever seen has this panel on it with a dot in two of the boxes:

and if you buy from Thomann you get the 230V version, whereas UK stores sell the 240V. I bought an RBI from Thomann, plugged it in and destroyed it. Fortunately Thomann took the standpoint that what they're selling *should* be fine over here, so gave me a refund. For everything since, I've just sent a quick email to the manufacturer and asked if they foresee any issue. All so far have said 'go ahead - it'll be fine'.
[/quote]

That's an unusual or poor design solution. I'd be interested to know what forced the former.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1388480843' post='2322372']
:-)
I knew the voltage was safe because I read the Manuel.
It was so moorish, I just have to Javier 'nother one.
[/quote]

[deepbass5]

[b]Ed S [/b]-- "if you buy from Thomann you get the 230V version, whereas UK stores sell the 240V." [b]Not correct[/b]

This was covered by Dad and Flyfisher, and is not the case we are now the same with some regional variations and indeed fluctuations from time to time ( during Christmas dinner cooking) due to how the Grid is split up and the loads on parts of the network and tappings off the transformers HV > LV. where i live part of the town is still on over 240 volts and the others side dont see any more than 220V.
I Have played in Europe and made up my own extension leads from Euro wall sockets to UK extension sockets, have ran my Bass gear PA and lights no problems.
Thomann is fine, But you should support you local shop so its there when you want it.

Edited December 31, 2013 by deepbass5

[Ed_S]

[quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1388490576' post='2322525']
[b]Ed S [/b]-- "if you buy from Thomann you get the 230V version, whereas UK stores sell the 240V." [b]Not correct[/b]
[/quote]

Well, it certainly [b]was[/b] correct when I bought and blew up the piece of equipment in question (September 2007 for the record - just looked at my order history). Understand I'm only talking about Tech21 gear; I agree that most items are fine, and Tech21 may even have altered their products since, but the screen shot of the voltage/fuse panel was taken from their website about 5 minutes before I posted.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='RandomBass' timestamp='1388484581' post='2322424']
That's an unusual or poor design solution. I'd be interested to know what forced the former.
[/quote]+1. I can't imagine the need for a 230v and a 240v version, that's way too slight a difference to matter. 220v and 250v, maybe. Voltage fluctuations of at least 10% are to be expected and gear should be designed to operate with that much swing.

[deepbass5]

Seems odd to me 2007 gear, unless built from old stock, but even at the pre EU voltage standardisation. I would think the tolerence should have coped with the voltage difference, ref Bill above, more likely to expect damage using old Uk gear in europe as the lower voltage there would result in the gear drawing more current. But as long as any new gear has the CE approval it should be fine now.

[Lozz196]

Ah well, not to worry re the Markbass/Thomann/MSL thingy - I got a price match from a UK retailer

[Dad3353]

[quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1388505004' post='2322790']...as the lower voltage there would result in the gear drawing more current...[/quote]

[slightly pedantic]Not so; that's not how it works. Lower voltage could result in lower power, but not higher current. Illustrated by the extreme: if the voltage drops to 1%, current doesn't go shooting up. Just sayin'[/slightly pedantic]

[flyfisher]

[also slightly pedantic]Could be so, depending on the circuit design. If the low voltage side of things is suitably stabilised to provide, say, a 300W output (I'm thinking about an amp here, but other devices would operate in a similar way) then the mains power requirement would be 300W + the efficiency factor of the PSU. Let's assume 50% efficiency to keep the maths easy, which means a mains input of 600W would be needed to supply the 300W amplifier output. Now, drop the mains voltage and the amplifier PSU would draw more current to maintain the 600W input requirement. And vice versa. You're right, of course, that there will be a limit over which the amplifier PSU can stabilise things so that in your extreme case of 1% mains voltage the amplifier would not draw a massive current, it would just stop working. But within the operating specification of the amplifier (which should certainly be the mains voltage +/-10% and probably more in practice for a good design), the mains current drawn would vary with the actual mains voltage available. Just sayin' [/also slightly pedantic].

[Dad3353]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1388515399' post='2322994']...Now, drop the mains voltage and the amplifier PSU would draw more current to maintain the 600W input requirement. And vice versa...[/quote]

[driven to mere quibbling...]I've not seen 'em all, far from it, and I can easily allow that it would be technically possible, but I've never come across an audio amp design which maintains power output. Maybe, but the designer would have something odd going on to want to do that. Any idea if it's been tried..? [/driven to mere quibbling...]

([i]NB: please ignore this sub-thread if it's too far from OT, and apologies. I'll wipe up any blood later.[/i].. )

[flyfisher]

I'd wager a small sum that the vast majority of audio amps do exactly what I'm describing. It's an inherent part of the PSU circuitry that generates the stabilised power supply for the actual audio amp circuitry.

Imagine, say, a 250W RMS amp with a 'universal' power supply that can operate on any mains voltage anywhere in the world. if I've understood correctly, you seem to be suggesting that the actual audio power output will vary enormously on either side of the pond (i.e. when operated on 110V or on 230V). I don't think that's the case. I also don't think the amplifier efficiency will change so that means that it must draw more current when operated on a 110V mains supply than when it's operated on a 230V mains supply. It's the function of the PSU circuitry to handle the different mains voltages in order to provide the audio amp with the power it needs to generate the 250W audio output.

[Dad3353]

Well, I'm old, that's all. To me, an amp PSU is a transformer, a bridge rectifier and a big capacitor. The trannie gives us the DC rails for the amp. US or UK; same rails (50v..? 75v..? 100v..?), different trannie windings. Old school, I know. Class D..? Nah, that's for wimps. They work by telekinesis, like that there super-glue: if you believe in 'em, they work. If you don't, they don't.
...but I could be wrong...

Edited December 31, 2013 by Dad3353

[flyfisher]

Well, there are plenty of class D converts out there that believe in them.

I agree with your point about a basic 'old school' amp with an unregulated power supply. However, there is a middle way and even amps with a big transformer and different taps for different mains voltages can have a regulated power supply for the audio amp stages. Voltage regulators have been around for ages and even before then (which I can remember!) it was possible to design regulated power supplied with discrete components, so I'd suggest that amps with unregulated PSUs are really just poor or cheap designs - the exception rather than the rule, as it were.