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NJE

4x10 Dilemma

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Hi folks,

I have a EBS Neo 4x10 rated at about 1000w I think. It runs at 4ohm with an Aguilar Tonehammer 350 and it's working very well, great volume/power, I don't thrash the head and I get a good sound.

So here is the dilemma, I have a small house and the cab lives down a narrow staircase in the basement. Its a pain to move and I usually take chunks out of the walls trying to move it. The other part of the dilemma is that I have a EBS classic 1x12 and I use that 2-3 times a week at practice to save me moving the big cab. It seems stupid that I have a VERY good cab sitting at home doing nothing most of the time and I have a small cab doing most of the work at rehearsals.

I have been thinking about moving to two 1x12 cabs but am concerned that it wont give me the power and 'move the air' like the 4x10 does. I do have PA support most of the time but rely on a powerful backline to hear myself (big band) but sometimes I do have to just use backline, but only in small-ish rooms to say 160 people.

Has anyone done a move over to two 12's, and does it give enough volume and power? I know there are different levels of quality cabs, I wouldn't necessarily go for EBS classicline, perhaps Bergs or Aguilar? (not GS cabs, dont like them, found them 'boxey' sounding).

I know I need to try this stuff out really but I always feel guilty going to Bass Direct to just try stuff, not knowing if I am going to buy anything.

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Depends on the 12s, I don't know anything about the 12 you have specifically, but jsudge for the sound and not volume, and having two is more volume. A Barefaced 2x12 might well do everything you need, but no experience with new line.

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I was always either a 412 or a 410 & 210 player. My back determined the move to lighter gear, getting a Markbass CMD112P combo with NY121 ext cab. I fully expected to compromise however once I plugged in and played, my fears were abated. Plenty of volume, and the depth of sound I`m used to. Bear in mind that with surface area, two 12s is roughly the same as three 10s.

For reference my bands are punky type bands so there`s a lot of guitar and quick powerful drums yet I have more than enough sound - and for me depth of sound is as important as volume. Try it, two twelves are plenty for most people, 410s were largely created moons ago when technology/performance weren`t so good. If you like the sound of your TH through the EBS cabs I`d look at another Classic 112 - take advantage of distant selling regs to try one out with your current gear.

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Two 12s would be a nice modular rig, and a pair of decent ones should do pretty much most things really. You will certainly save your walls and woodwork from further damage.

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I went from a pair of Berg 2x10's to a pair of light and compact TKS Engineering 12s.

Theoretically, the Bergs would probably go louder, but the TKS go as loud as I would practically need... without complaining.

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Without wishing to start a hoo-hah, I also would recommend a BF - the Super Twin. It will do everything your 4X10 does. I moved from two 4X10s to two BFM 1X12s and they can produce astonishing SPLs. Two 1X12s are a lot easier to haul, as has already been mentioned. But a Super Twin weighs 18kg - the same as ONE of my 1X12s.

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[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1383414602' post='2264272']
Without wishing to start a hoo-hah, I also would recommend a BF - the Super Twin. It will do everything your 4X10 does. I moved from two 4X10s to two BFM 1X12s and they can produce astonishing SPLs. Two 1X12s are a lot easier to haul, as has already been mentioned. But a Super Twin weighs 18kg - the same as ONE of my 1X12s.
[/quote]

Hoo-hah? I love that term. There be a hoo-hah approaching from the North, I tell ye....

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[quote name='RandomBass' timestamp='1383414728' post='2264275']
Hoo-hah? I love that term. There be a hoo-hah approaching from the North, I tell ye....
[/quote]

It's in the dictionary, you know... ;)

[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=4][b]hoo-ha[/b][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3] or [/size][/font][/color][b]hoo-hah[/b][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3] [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3] [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3](h)[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3]
[i]n.[/i] [i]Slang[/i]
[indent=1][b]1. [/b]A fuss; a disturbance: [color=#226699][i]"the subject of this last hoo-hah"[/i][/color] [color=#226699][i](William Safire).[/i][/color][/indent]
[indent=1][b]2. [/b]A chortle or laugh: [color=#226699][i]got a good hoo-ha out of that story.[/i][/color][/indent][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3]
[Perhaps from Yiddish hu-ha, [i]to-do, uproar, exclamation[/i].][/size][/font][/color]

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[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1383415269' post='2264281']
It's in the dictionary, you know... ;)

[color=#000000][font=Arial][b]hoo-ha[/b][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3] or [/size][/font][/color][b]hoo-hah[/b][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3](h)[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3][i]n.[/i] [i]Slang[/i][/size][/font][/color]
[indent=1][b]1. [/b]A fuss; a disturbance: [color=#226699][i]"the subject of this last hoo-hah"[/i][/color] [color=#226699][i](William Safire).[/i][/color][/indent]
[indent=1][b]2. [/b]A chortle or laugh: [color=#226699][i]got a good hoo-ha out of that story.[/i][/color][/indent]

[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3][Perhaps from Yiddish hu-ha, [i]to-do, uproar, exclamation[/i].][/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]

The dictionary, such a good book, explains every word as you go :huh:

I've already got me coat....

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[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1383415832' post='2264290']
The dictionary, such a good book, explains every word as you go...
[/quote]

Crappy plot, though.

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[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1383416309' post='2264300']
Crappy plot, though.
[/quote]

It's got nothing on the sequel, the Thesaurus....

Anyway, back to the subject matter

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I think it depends what your 410 can do and what your 2x112's can do.
First off, don't even think about a single 12 matching your 410.... so you will need 2x112's
I don't think the EBS classic line is going to be comparable ...it is a cheaper option but not the best one, IMV
But you may want to try them to rule them out..

So, that leaves you with higher end 112..
I think the heavy old DB212 takes some beating ..and outperforms Berg AE112's to my ears, but a 212 lump will
cover the gig easy but still bash about your walls so no real gain.
I'd be interested in hearing the CN112's at gigs and maybe the SL112's. Otherwise, my choice would be some ceramics
and since I know how the DB cabs work, they would be number one choice for me.

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There's no point owning cabs that sound great if you're not using them.

The only question I have is; do you like the sound of your 112? If you do then 2 will sound louder, have a much better tone and won’t weigh any more to move.

I've been using 2 Bergantino 112 cabs for the last 5 years and they have seen off a Berg 410 and 2 Berg 210's. I thought the 10's sounded marginally better (tighter and punchier) than the fantastic sounding 12's. I sold the 10's because of their size and weight and because I realised that I hadn’t used then in nearly a year! 2 112's and a 500 watt amp is loud enough for most of my bands, and unless you're pushing the 410 hard 2 112s should give you want.

If you're nervous about the capabilities of EBS 12's, there are a couple of Barefaced Super12 cabs in the FS section.

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Thanks for all the comments and suggestions folks, I had a gig yesterday so I am just scanning through them all now.

Last night really highlighted how much of an inconvenience the 4x10 can be so I think its pushed me even closer to going over to a modular set up. I like the EBS Classic 112 I have but I am very aware that it is a budget cab. It sounds good at low volume and does well at practice but I am unsure whether to gamble on getting a second as I am not sure how much power they will really take and whether they will handle the 5 string.

I had two Aguilar GS112 cabs with an Eden head and I found them very 'boxey' and mid range, they didn't have a lot of low end and the low B never sounded very full. I am tempted to see if the DB112 cabs are any better, they would look great with the tonehammer.

I think its just about finding the 'right' 1x12 cab, I am sure from all your comments they will work well for me, but I think I will need good quality ones and I will need to try them.

I do really like the look of the TKS cabs as well......hmmm

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I think your problem with the GS112 cabs might have been down to the amp.

I ran 2 with a Thunderfunk and didn't have any tone or volume issues. My problem with Aguilar 112's is that while they sound very good they are too heavy for me as a 1 handed lift. I haven't heard the SL's but they don't seem to have caused many ripples in the world of bass!

My 12's have always handled 5 string basses at volume with no problem.

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wow..... one thing I never found was the GS112's being boxey.
They had masses of low end for me with a 5 st... but what didn't work... even with the tweeter, was the hi-end unless the strings were very new and crisp..
This is why I sold them... the band loved them though.

I find the DB212 which use the same chassis' much better higher up...and it still have great lows which underpin everything.

If I could find a pr of DB112's that would be my small footprint rig..in place of my current 112's

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Bit off field here, but how about a pair of lightweight 210s? Easy to move, modular, and stacked with the drivers vertically will give good results in my experience.

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[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1383498383' post='2265076']
wow..... one thing I never found was the GS112's being boxey.
They had masses of low end for me with a 5 st... but what didn't work... even with the tweeter, was the hi-end unless the strings were very new and crisp..
This is why I sold them... the band loved them though.

I find the DB212 which use the same chassis' much better higher up...and it still have great lows which underpin everything.

If I could find a pr of DB112's that would be my small footprint rig..in place of my current 112's
[/quote]

Thats really interesting, I think boxey was the wrong word, you hit the nail on the head, I never really got the top end out of them. The only way I can kind of explain it, is when I got my EBS Neo, it was like someone had lifted a really thick blanket off my cab in comparison to the Aggie's.

I think my tastes have changed though and I play a lot of soul and motown stuff so I really don't need that crisp top end. Perhaps the DB cabs will be a better match, they do look fantastic as well.

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A good 2x12 will be better than an average 4x10 imo and ime, the only problem is that im still not convinced that 2 1x12s are as good as a 2x12. Sure the maths say that they should be and alex barefaced says identicle boxes times 2 will be the same but they are not identicle as you have two dirty great pieces of plywood between them. Id love to try a pair of 1x12 neox t genz cabs next to my single 2x12 neox t cab.

Edited by stingrayPete1977

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[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1383499725' post='2265106']
A good 2x12 will be better than an average 4x10 imo and ime, the only problem is that im still not convinced that 2 1x12s are as good as a 2x12. Sure the maths say that they should be and alex barefaced says identicle boxes times 2 will be the same but they are not identicle as you have two dirty great pieces of plywood between them. Id love to try a pair of 1x12 neox t genz cabs next to my single 2x12 neox t cab.
[/quote]

I have been tempted by a Bergantino 2x12 cab, its a bit slimmer and manageable than my 4x10 but only a bit, and I think it will still be awkward for me on my own moving it. At 1:30 in the morning I want a couple of easy lifts out of my car.

I think a trip to a couple of shops is my only option unless an amazing deal pops up.

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The tall and narrow config on the genz (and similar) cabs makes them alot easier to move than a 4x10 but id agree that if you are going up and down stairs all the time then a pair might be best, I've never needed to push my 2x12 very hard so even if there is a small advantage of a single cab over the pair they should still be good for most gigs, bassdirect pilgrimage required :D

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A pair of Berg HD210s might work for you. The ceramic speakers give them a lot of classic 'heft' and depth of tone and a single 210 is enough for many gigs. You could always add the second one for larger stages or if you just want to move more air.

Apart from keeping you close to the 10" sound that you currently have there's another big advantage with these Berg 210s - they are really shallow, about 12" deep I think. That's about 3" less than a lot of standard size 112cabs and it makes a surprising difference in stage footprint and, particularly important in your case, when lugging them up and down stairs :)

Hey aren't the lightest but the basic shape does mean they are pretty easy to shift around :)

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Heft can always be changed with some clever EQ. You may find you won't need all that big low end air going around as 2 1x12 or 2 2x10 stacked vertically with give you a much clearer and cleaner midrange.

I did gig with a single SVT210AV(a tiny 200watt cab) raised it a little and I didn't even have to push the amp very much. Yeah it was a bit weightless and I boosted the lows a fair bit, but that changes with a second cab underneath.

With 2x10 at ear height(or at least as tall as an 8x10) will give you the clear midrange to hear yourelf and the one underneath will give you the low end you are used to due to off axis response and all that gubbins.

I'd try that kind of setup first, if I was moving from a 410.

Although my cab now is a 1x12 and it blows away a lot of the usual big stuff that's available at our rehearsal space.

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