Lord Sausage Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I'm just waiting for the everlasting Know-it-all to show up and tell us how we are all wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 [quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1382290141' post='2250179'] I'm just waiting for the everlasting Know-it-all to show up and tell us how we are all wrong! [/quote] I've no idea to whom you could possibly be referring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 [quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1382290141' post='2250179'] I'm just waiting for the everlasting Know-it-all to show up and tell us how we are all wrong! [/quote] Which one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1382289101' post='2250153'] Could you translate that into English, please? [size=4] [/size] [/quote] Lets put it this way, I'm pretty certain my basslines would improve more if I knuckled down to some theory than if I forgot what little theory I have already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1382290367' post='2250186'] I've no idea to whom you could possibly be referring. [/quote] [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1382290720' post='2250199'] Which one? [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Well I generally come up with the lines to a song that`s already written, so I suppose whatever I come up with is in line with theory, albeit unknowingly. I let my ears decide, if a note doesn`t sound right I play around with the line until it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 A lot of people who learn theory neglect the most important part - ear training. For example its all very well knowing that G -> C is a perfect cadence in C but if you cant "hear" what it sounds like in your mind then the knowledge is of little use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samuelcroberts Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Improvisation, noodling, messing about etc. are all improved by having more musical knowledge. To say that you don't need to learn any theory or that ideas are better when you don't think in terms of theory isn't true. The same is true of technique. You can think up the most fantastic musical ideas in your head, but if you can't sing them or you can't physically play them or learn them, then there's a flaw somewhere in the system. Improvisation, theory and technique are all incredibly important for any musician or composer, but ideas are equally vital. If you take music that only focuses on one specific area, it often lacks with regards to aesthetics, e.g. it doesn't sound that great or isn't 100% accessible. Someone like Victor Wooten is a prime example. Fantastic technical bass player with excellent ideas, but (in my opinion anyway... ) his music can often suffer because it focuses too much on, say, speed or technique, as opposed to create application of technique, theory etc.. That said, if you do noodle around and create a great, innovative bass line, it still has it's theoretical worth. You just didn't know it at the time! Meh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaver Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Mainly theory, bit of noodling on top. My ears are too shot to get me anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1382292532' post='2250245'] A lot of people who learn theory neglect the most important part - ear training. For example its all very well knowing that G -> C is a perfect cadence in C but if you cant "hear" what it sounds like in your mind then the knowledge is of little use. [/quote] I think that's another myth, personally . Same as the one about classical players not being able to improvise. It's something we're taught at uni, but most people I know, even drummers there have great hearing and are able to recognise cadences and intervals, it's part of being a musician. If you take the time and effort to learn the theory/harmony side of your playing, why would you neglect the aural side ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1382292532' post='2250245'] A lot of people who learn theory neglect the most important part - ear training. For example its all very well knowing that G -> C is a perfect cadence in C but if you cant "hear" what it sounds like in your mind then the knowledge is of little use. [/quote] That makes no sense. To know what a perfect cadence is I have to know what it sounds like. Anyway who are these people neglecting ear training while learning supposed theory. If there are such people then they aren't learning anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1382292532' post='2250245'] A lot of people who learn theory neglect the most important part - ear training. For example its all very well knowing that G -> C is a perfect cadence in C but if you cant "hear" what it sounds like in your mind then the knowledge is of little use. [/quote] I have generally found that as the years go by, Things like knowing intervals and being aware of how something sounds before you play it, starts to become more and more instictive. I think as long as you practice regularly you cant help but learn theory by osmosis. (even if you dont know the names for it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1382293188' post='2250260'] That makes no sense. To know what a perfect cadence is I have to know what it sounds like. Anyway who are these people neglecting ear training while learning supposed theory. If there are such people then they aren't learning anything. [/quote] What I said . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 (edited) [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1382293053' post='2250254'] I think that's another myth, personally . Same as the one about classical players not being able to improvise.... [/quote] It is definitely a myth. I've played with some and listened to lots of classically trained players who could improvise. Here's a classically trained musician (who I have not played with ) and he is improvising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCa3iyBekCs Edited October 20, 2013 by EssentialTension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1382293357' post='2250266'] What I said . [/quote] Amen brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I want to disagree with the framework for this question posed by the OP.... firstly you're writing music or basslines. So I'm going to presuppose that you have listened to some music in your life... secondly... your noodling on a bass guitar... I'm guessing you can actually play the thing. And maybe even learned some songs written by other people? So before you have started your noodling.... you've got an in depth knowledge of western music, esp the use of bass guitar across different genres, you have learnt to play your instrument, will know through practice where each note is and... the tonal relationships between the note you're playing and other notes on the fretboard, you have a muscle memory of where notes are, you have a sense of rhythm gained from listening and learning your instrument and practice. So you wish to suggest you have no musical theory to your noodling... well you may not pass any exams at music school (I wouldn't either) but you've got some theory there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 The last thing I'm thinking of when I'm writing lines is the theory - I'm playing what I hear in my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 (edited) [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1382292532' post='2250245'] A lot of people who learn theory neglect the most important part - ear training. For example its all very well knowing that G -> C is a perfect cadence in C but if you cant "hear" what it sounds like in your mind then the knowledge is of little use. [/quote] To know what the notes are at each fret, and to know the relationship between them. I don't see how someone who knows where an A is, and where a C sharp is, and knows the relationship between them, plays them and doesn't hear how they sound from one to another, and that they're the first 2 notes from while shepherds wash their socks. Same with the other intervals, and cadences. You hear amen at the end of a hymn, if you learn that's a plagel cadence, how'd you not know what it sounds like ? Edited October 20, 2013 by ambient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I need to google cadence..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Vincent Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 [quote name='daz' timestamp='1382293218' post='2250262'] I have generally found that as the years go by, Things like knowing intervals and being aware of how something sounds before you play it, starts to become more and more instictive. I think as long as you practice regularly you cant help but learn theory by osmosis. (even if you dont know the names for it) [/quote] Theory by Osmosis... I have a new album title. Totally agree with what daz has said here.If you play for any length of time you pick up the theory without studying theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 (edited) [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1382294053' post='2250282'] The last thing I'm thinking of when I'm writing lines is the theory - I'm playing what I hear in my head. [/quote] This is an interesting answer because I think it's what's true in most situations. I have three thoughts on this: 1. in this discussion there is massive incidence of the blind leading the blind. 2. If you are playing things from your own musical imagination there is theory that expresses it in a written communicable form [i]Whether you like it or not fellas. [/i]Just because you are not thinking in theoretical terms (which is perfectly fine) does not mean there is no theory at play. 3. People that are both musical and theoretically able will be at a bassline in around a 100th of the time that a noodler will take which is what makes me able to go on a gig or recording session with people I've never met and read chord charts to come up with a bass part on the spot. I did this session with one rehearsal and chord charts so when I recorded the song it was the 2nd or 3rd time I'd played it: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/220192-new-artist-video/page__pid__2249848#entry2249848"]http://basschat.co.u...48#entry2249848[/url] Edited October 20, 2013 by jakenewmanbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Vincent Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 And I've never has a lesson or read a book in my life and still don't know what most of the notes are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 [quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1382295182' post='2250310'] This is an interesting answer because I think it's what's true in most situations. I have three thoughts on this: 1. in this discussion there is massive incidence of the blind leading the blind. 2. If you are playing things from your own musical imagination there is theory that expresses it in a written communicable form [i]Whether you like it or not fellas. [/i]Just because you are not thinking in theoretical terms (which is perfectly fine) does not mean there is no theory at play. 3. People that are both musical and theoretically able will be at a bassline in around a 100th of the time that a noodler will take which is what makes me able to go on a gig or recording session with people I've never met and read chord charts to come up with a bass part on the spot. I did this session with one rehearsal and chord charts so when I recorded the song it was the 2nd or 3rd time I played it: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/220192-new-artist-video/page__pid__2249848#entry2249848"]http://basschat.co.u...48#entry2249848[/url] [/quote] Bang on as ever Jake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 [quote name='Spike Vincent' timestamp='1382295216' post='2250313'] And I've never has a lesson or read a book in my life and still don't know what most of the notes are. [/quote] Pretty much the same here I did have a couple of lessons but found them a waste of time as all my teacher wanted to do was show off how good he was on bass and all he did for lesson plans was download tab offline for me so I gave up and started to teach myself with the aid of books and youtube videos I will have lessons again in the future but I will search hard for a good teacher before hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1382295464' post='2250322'] Bang on as ever Jake. [/quote] just like to get to the heart of the matter Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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